Traditions. Bottom up or top down

[Furniture]

Apparently Venture was gone, but is being stood back up under NPTG? I don't really follow what is going on, but they broke CFNES a few years ago (along with OT div) so why not make a clean sweep?

The plus side of PARs replacing PERs is 'leading change' is no longer a bubble (which someone probably got a bubble for).

My old CbtO is the new CO of Venture, so I suspect it's still around.

 

[FSTO]

Apparently Venture was gone, but is being stood back up under NPTG? I don't really follow what is going on, but they broke CFNES a few years ago (along with OT div) so why not make a clean sweep?

The plus side of PARs replacing PERs is 'leading change' is no longer a bubble (which someone probably got a bubble for).

Yes. Venture has been hived off from NPTG last summer.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Yes. Venture has been hived off from NPTG last summer.

Do you happen to know if that included the NTO officer training for NEI and phase 6, or is that still an orphan (or maybe still under CFNES)?

Not sure why they shut down OT div at CFNES; it did all the admin for NTOs from post basic - OFP, ran the phase 4 and 6 training, coordinated all the boards etc. Was a fairly small staff for the number of students as well, so seemed pretty good value.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I can see their point, however, historical revisionism is a fickle beast. What's repugnant to some was the pride and glory of others. I'm certain the Sikhs and Punjab fighters who distinguished themselves proudly putting down the mutiny at Lucknow would be pretty miffed to know their legacy has been erased under the guise of "progressivism."

So how long until we in Canada see "Batoche" "Fish Creek" "Cut Knife Hill" and "North West Rebellion 1885" picked out of the colours and guidons of the Canadian Army? Where do we draw the line between what was and what is now? Do the 1812 Battle Honours get stripped because it might offend our American Allies (Hint: it doesn't. It's actually a pretty jocular subject of ribbing amongst friends nowadays)?

Nationalism and crafting a distinctly Canadian identity is a lofty goal. Mainly because it's a fallacy. We beg, borrow, and steal from so many different cultures and traditions that it's near impossible to have something distinctly "ours". Hell the flag of our country was stylized off of the RMC flag, that predated the "colonialist and bigoted" Red Ensign by a good 25 years.

If CRCN is big on the RCN to become "Canada's Navy," that's cool. I hope he renounces the "Senior Service" status and right of line privileges too. RCN can fall in behind the RCCS and before the Infantry. It's more historically accurate.

Much like the Water Corporal debacle from a few years ago, this is solving a problem no one asked to fix. This is not revising or adapting a tradition; this is someone with an agenda using their platform to settle a score.

I do not think it is revisionist history for the Indian government to declare those Battle Honours repugnant. Those honours had been awarded by a foreign power that had occupied/conquered India to Indian units that had fought against Indian independence. Other Battle Honours won under British control were left in place. I can understand the Indian sentiment. On the other hand, it would be revisionist history for the British Army to also declare those Battle Honours repugnant for British Army units that were at those actions.

1812 Battle Honours for Canadian units are a completely different matter. Those were awarded (200 years later) by the Government of Canada to Canadian units that were fighting against a foreign power. That that foreign power is now our close ally is not important. Its a very different situation than the Indian Mutiny Battle Honours.

I don't think countries that were occupied celebrate the actions of their people who worked for the occupiers against their own countrymen?

 

[Underway]

I hate that one and refused to use a purple pen, and when I had to got a scented one with glitter for fun. After that I got a blue pen again. Totally irrational but I don't like purple generally, and also tainted by the first person I met that followed that being a complete and utter knob.

Funniest thing was seeing the CSEO sign a radhaz chit with orange pen at night, have it disappear in red light, and have it come back for signature in blue/black.

Yah no chits or claims to be signed in Orange, thats a no-no. Wait for the JSS which has almost all green light vice red light (NVG compliant). XO's sig will then be the one disappearing.

I get it about the pen colour though. Some are hard core into it, and some are not. I personally only use the orange pen gifted to me to take notes during meetings and all sigs are with the blue pen.

Do you happen to know if that included the NTO officer training for NEI and phase 6, or is that still an orphan (or maybe still under CFNES)?

All officer training is under the Venture CoC.

 

[FSTO]

Do you happen to know if that included the NTO officer training for NEI and phase 6, or is that still an orphan (or maybe still under CFNES)?

Not sure why they shut down OT div at CFNES; it did all the admin for NTOs from post basic - OFP, ran the phase 4 and 6 training, coordinated all the boards etc. Was a fairly small staff for the number of students as well, so seemed pretty good value.

Don't know the internal workings of the NPTG. But it is appearing that a lot of de-Knippling is going on.

 

[FSTO]

I don't think countries that were occupied celebrate the actions of their people who worked for the occupiers against their own countrymen?

When does the reckoning happen to the African leaders who were the enablers of the trans-atlantic slave trade?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

When does the reckoning happen to the African leaders who were the enablers of the trans-atlantic slave trade?

Why would they have to ensure that African leaders who enabled the trans-atlantic slave trade were held to account before making a decision about their own history and heritage system. I am not seeing the logical link?

I am not sure how that relates to the Indian Government declaring certain battle honours repugnant? The one can happen without the other. India is a sovereign, independent country that controls its honours, history and heritage system. India made the decision to declare those battle honours it considered actions against their independence repugnant. That only affected Indian Army regiments. For what its worth I think it was a reasonable decision and there was clearly some nuance. They didn't jettison everything.

 

[FSTO]

They didn't jettison everything.

Nice to see that some countries capable of nuance.

 

[FSTO]

Why would they have to ensure that African leaders who enabled the trans-atlantic slave trade were held to account before making a decision about their own history and heritage system. I am not seeing the logical link?

Yea, I’m not really seeing the point I was trying to make either.

Maybe that history is very messy, and one side good and other side bad is not realistic at all. Except Nazies and Genocidal Communists, those ones are easy.

 

[btrudy]

Tradition is the glue that holds things together and makes us unique. They are rally points to be celebrated and bond a unit's personnel.
You can develop and install a new tradition but you can't change a standing one. Otherwise, all the meaning is lost.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment.

The job is the glue the holds things together and makes us unique. We are the only organization in the country whose job is to go forth and do violence on behalf of the Government of Canada. Everything else falls out as a result of that, including any and all traditions that we've developed over the years.

Traditions could be eliminated wholesale, and it wouldn't change in any way that one fundamental fact that makes us different from everyone else. They'd simply be replaced with new traditions. And if that were the case, hopefully they'd be better served to do the fundamental purpose of a tradition; to increase morale and esprit de corp, given that they'd have been developed by people who think like current service members do, and not people who think like service members in the 1890s do.

The vast majority of traditions we have are things that we would never in our right mind choose to implement now if we didn't have the institutional inertia keeping things going.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I hate coins. They are a cancer.

I love the people who have those stands for them. And then when you go to CANEX for a pack of DuMaurier, to keep from killing, you see all the coins they had on their desk for sale at the cash register. These things are worthless.

True story, young Bos'n on FRE was given a COs coin, made the one pace step back, salute and right turn and promptly threw it over the side in the Reykjavik harbor.

Real killers smoke Belmonts

The charcoal filter gives you that edge!

Yah no chits or claims to be signed in Orange, thats a no-no. Wait for the JSS which has almost all green light vice red light (NVG compliant). XO's sig will then be the one disappearing.

I get it about the pen colour though. Some are hard core into it, and some are not. I personally only use the orange pen gifted to me to take notes during meetings and all sigs are with the blue pen.


All officer training is under the Venture CoC.

I didn't even know this pen colour thing, was a thing.

Pretty ridiculous LOL

 

[Halifax Tar]

Real killers smoke Belmonts

The charcoal filter gives you that edge!


I didn't even know this pen colour thing, was a thing.

Pretty ridiculous LOL

Belmont!

Look you mister pinkys out wardroom man

 

[Remius]

The vast majority of traditions we have are things that we would never in our right mind choose to implement now if we didn't have the institutional inertia keeping things going.

That’s a pretty broad statement. My counter to that is that traditions are perpetuated because there is a desire or sense of responsibility to do so.

If those things go then so does the tradition. Things take their natural course and either die or keep going.

I can’t speak to the Navy or Airforce. Only from an army perspective and a regimental one. We have a commemoration dinner for example that has adapted with the times. In my time I’ve seen some traditions go away due to lack of interest or effort and new ones spring up that have been happening. Not sure about the vast majority would never in our right mind be implemented statement you made though.

The latest I heard about anything the institution got involved in was that kilted units being told to wear underwear under their kilts from now on.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The latest I heard about anything the institution got involved in was that kilted units being told to wear underwear under their kilts from now on.

Bit of a sidebar, but in my personal experience, that can be really important depending on the material. Especially when you get into utilikilts that come in things like canvas or heavy duty fabrics chaffing is a real possibility.

I find most wool itchy as heck even after washing but to each their own I guess.

But brining it back to tradition, a kilt looks amazing with the RCN mess kit, which is already a short jacket.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Bit of a sidebar, but in my personal experience, that can be really important depending on the material. Especially when you get into utilikilts that come in things like canvas or heavy duty fabrics chaffing is a real possibility.

I find most wool itchy as heck even after washing but to each their own I guess.

But brining it back to tradition, a kilt looks amazing with the RCN mess kit, which is already a short jacket.

How about a Highland Ship ?

HMCS New Scotland ?

 

[dimsum]

How about a Highland Ship ?

HMCS New Scotland ?

 

[Underway]

Real killers smoke Belmonts

The charcoal filter gives you that edge!


I didn't even know this pen colour thing, was a thing.

Pretty ridiculous LOL

Not necessary but I wouldn't call it ridiculous. It gives instant feedback to the CO on who has signed what when paperwork arrives on his desk. He can see orange for the CSEO, Blue for OPS, Green for XP and know that it's gone through all the different people it needs to without trying to figure out who signed what.

There is no difference in that the XO signs in green for this exact reason, and in the army I believe there is a green pen used somewhere as well (Adjt? Majors? OC?) not sure which position/rank.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How about a Highland Ship ?

HMCS New Scotland ?

You mean 'Nova Scotia', right?

A great idea except we'd probably wind up with a picture of it on the back of our coinage for aeons, for no particular reason

 

[Navy_Pete]

How about a Highland Ship ?

HMCS New Scotland ?

I think I'm good with the status quo but if I'm going to be forced to go to a mess dinner I'm happy just to ask the PMC permission for cultural reasons; pretty hard for them to say no.

Plus my mess kit pants don't fit my quads anymore (went from skinnny to slightly less skinny) so would rather buy a formal kilt, as the quote I got for the pants was basically a remake with the original gold ribbon.