"Too many stressed soldiers slip through cracks: report "

[the 48th regulator]

And why would I know? My role will be as a primary health care provider to the service member, under supervision of a MD. My job is to recognize a problem with the member, and then attempt to help him by referring him to the care he/she requires. Do I need to know the details of what VAC entitles the soldier's family? No. And besides how would I? The program is still in the working group stage.
Further, do not take my ignorance of the newest developing policy as a systemic problem as I am still in training, and not working where the knowledge of the latest CF policy is required.

As I said,

My previous statement was not meant to insult you.  However, when you ask why would you , then why did you make a statement such as this;

The one issue that will not/can not be addressed by DND and the CF is the care of the family. That is the realm of provincial health care system. It is tough enough to get these family members who move from province to province a family doctor in many areas, imagine if DND all of sudden told a local psychiatrist that they must take the wife and 3 children of a soldier who has been diagnosed with OSI.....

I am glad I am below the pay grade that would be tasked with solving that problem.

You are offering advice, based on what you think, not on your experience, or proper information.  This is exactly what the Ombudsman is talking about.  With your lack of knowledge, you perport to know what families are entitled to, and being wrong, and help to perpetuate the myth.

Wouldn't you agree?

dileas

tess

 

[The Bread Guy]

Links to

the Ombudsman's report, "A Long Road to Recovery:  Battling Operational Stress Injuries",

the associated news release, and

a case study from Petawawa.

 

[Armymedic]

Interesting read, that case study. Not surprised with its contents. The health care provider shortage, both civilian and military, in Petawawa has been an issue for several yrs.

 

[combatbuddha]

I was wondering if there have been any studies conducted on the effects to a soldiers family by directly being injured with PTSD from their stress of having their partner deployed to a SDA. Hypothetically, a spouse or child could get PTSD on "behalf" of their spouse, even though the member has come home safe and sound....or injured.
Is this possible?
Anyone ever hear of this?

 

[George Wallace]

I was wondering if there have been any studies conducted on the effects to a soldiers family by directly being injured with PTSD from their stress of having their partner deployed to a SDA. Hypothetically, a spouse or child could get PTSD on "behalf" of their spouse, even though the member has come home safe and sound....or injured.
Is this possible?
Anyone ever hear of this?

Goto Page one (1) of this topic and read posts 2 and 3.  As for Studies, yes they have been done.  I don't have any links though.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Minister's Letter:  Letter of response to the Ombudsman, 19 Dec 08

Ms. Mary McFadyen
Interim Ombudsman
National Defence and Canadian Forces
100 Metcalfe Street
12th Floor
Ottawa ON K1P 5M1

Dear Ms. McFadyen:

Thank you for sending me your report on the state of mental-health services at Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Petawawa.  I appreciate the opportunity to read the report in advance of its official release.

Since the report encompasses a number of concerns regarding the care and treatment of military members and their families, I have asked the Chief Military Personnel to review the document and provide me with his assessment.

One of my priorities is to ensure that our Canadian Forces members receive the best care possible.  In that regard, Canadian Forces Health Services is implementing an ambitious and innovative healthcare reform process aimed at providing a patient-oriented health service to better meet the needs of our Canadian Forces members and their families.  But there are challenges that we must cope with, such as attracting medical care providers in the regions.  The Department of National Defence is now examining other staffing and care delivery strategies to address the situation.  These challenges are shared by the civilian healthcare sector.

I am pleased to report that a Joint Personnel Support Unit will be established at CFB Petawawa and in other locations throughout the country.  The Department of National Defence-Veterans Affairs Canada Centre for the Support of Injured Members, Veterans and their Families ensures the coordination and facilitation of standardized, high-quality, consistent care and administrative support during all phases of recovery, rehabilitation, and reintegration – on return to service, or transition following release – for all injured and ill Canadian Forces members and veterans, their families, and the families of the deceased.  As for the services of our chaplains, these are valuable and contribute to the care of our military families.  I support the notion of providing the resources required for high-quality chaplain services for our Canadian Forces members and their families.

The report has been reviewed, and you will find, enclosed, the departmental responses to the report.

Once again, let me thank you for the opportunity to review the report prior to its official publication.

Sincerely,

Peter G. MacKay

 

[X-mo-1979]

There seems to be a lot of talk about higher dealing with operational stress,however I believe it has to be pushed down to the lowest supervisor level (Mcpl,Sgt).The briefings I have had are very generic,the 1980's video with artillery landing in what looks like Gagetown,with men walking around shell shocked with awesome mustaches.Not relevant.

In my mind what we need is real world examples.Signs and symptoms in a case study environment not in a point bullet.

As a Mcpl you should be talking to your guys.Offline.Not around the Snr NCO's,not to get recognition on a PER by "aiding" your troop's.I've seen this too.End's up stressing the kid's out more when they think the leadership See's them as having a problem.
Read,read,read.
I was once a bit sceptical of PTSD,of people who get too stressed to continue.However as a supervisor/leader you have to prepare yourself for the questions,for the signs,and for the chats needed sometimes.

I found the best way for me to effectively communicate with someone I thought may be having a problem with something was to put myself on duty with him under the ruse of giving his peer a break on the op with him.
As well when something bad happens and time permits after,discuss what happened.Sometimes you might find someone in your section may have been blaming himself.....when it was nothing of the sort.Discussing in AAR type settings at a crew level works very well.As well you can gauge how the boys are feeling about the incident.

Some guys worry about breaking some stonecutter ritual of being only a rank to subordinates.
If the boys can't talk to you one on one and then take orders from you,your an very ineffective leader IMHO.

 

[the 48th regulator]

There seems to be a lot of talk about higher dealing with operational stress,however I believe it has to be pushed down to the lowest supervisor level (Mcpl,Sgt).The briefings I have had are very generic,the 1980's video with artillery landing in what looks like Gagetown,with men walking around shell shocked with awesome mustaches.Not relevant.

In my mind what we need is real world examples.Signs and symptoms in a case study environment not in a point bullet.

As a Mcpl you should be talking to your guys.Offline.Not around the Snr NCO's,not to get recognition on a PER by "aiding" your troop's.I've seen this too.End's up stressing the kid's out more when they think the leadership See's them as having a problem.
Read,read,read.
I was once a bit sceptical of PTSD,of people who get too stressed to continue.However as a supervisor/leader you have to prepare yourself for the questions,for the signs,and for the chats needed sometimes.

I found the best way for me to effectively communicate with someone I thought may be having a problem with something was to put myself on duty with him under the ruse of giving his peer a break.
As well when something bad happens and time permits after,discuss what happened.Sometimes you might find someone in your section may have been blaming himself.....when it was nothing of the sort.Discussing in AAR type settings at a crew level works very well.As well you can gauge how the boys are feeling about the incident.

Some guys worry about breaking some stonecutter ritual of being only a rank to subordinates.
If the boys can't talk to you one on one and then take orders from you,your an very ineffective leader IMHO.

This is an excellent observation, and in fact is being done right now.

The OSISS speakers bureau are running courses on all BMQs and PLQs.  The idea will eventually expand to all Leadership courses.

Any Unit, can however, request that the briefing be done, which takes about a minimum of 8 hours and up, depending on the depth requested.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=department/press/back_ground/osiss_program

OSISS has a network of Veterans who have experienced an operational stress injury. They provide education packages and training to effect an institutional cultural change regarding the realities of operational stress injuries. This component of the program is known as the Speaker’s Bureau. Its focus has been on the Canadian Forces community to include leadership courses, professional development and community outreach. While mental health services have improved significantly over the last decade, they have mainly focused on conventional clinical solutions while overlooking non-clinical social determinants such as peer support

Gone are the days of The briefings that were very generic, the 1980's video with artillery landing in what looks like Gagetown, with men walking around shell shocked with awesome mustaches. As this was recognized by many as being non relevant.


dileas

tess

 

[daftandbarmy]

There seems to be a lot of talk about higher dealing with operational stress,however I believe it has to be pushed down to the lowest supervisor level (Mcpl,Sgt).The briefings I have had are very generic,the 1980's video with artillery landing in what looks like Gagetown,with men walking around shell shocked with awesome mustaches.Not relevant.

In my mind what we need is real world examples.Signs and symptoms in a case study environment not in a point bullet.

As a Mcpl you should be talking to your guys.Offline.Not around the Snr NCO's,not to get recognition on a PER by "aiding" your troop's.I've seen this too.End's up stressing the kid's out more when they think the leadership See's them as having a problem.
Read,read,read.
I was once a bit sceptical of PTSD,of people who get too stressed to continue.However as a supervisor/leader you have to prepare yourself for the questions,for the signs,and for the chats needed sometimes.

I found the best way for me to effectively communicate with someone I thought may be having a problem with something was to put myself on duty with him under the ruse of giving his peer a break on the op with him.
As well when something bad happens and time permits after,discuss what happened.Sometimes you might find someone in your section may have been blaming himself.....when it was nothing of the sort.Discussing in AAR type settings at a crew level works very well.As well you can gauge how the boys are feeling about the incident.

Some guys worry about breaking some stonecutter ritual of being only a rank to subordinates.
If the boys can't talk to you one on one and then take orders from you,your an very ineffective leader IMHO.

You are providing us with an excellent example of what should be done, and how.

My question is this: How do we train our junior (and not so junior) leaders to do what X-Mo is doing?

 

[the 48th regulator]

You are providing us with an excellent example of what should be done, and how.

My question is this: How do we train our junior (and not so junior) leaders to do what X-Mo is doing?

Hmm,

I thought I addressed that.

DND is implementing OSI education, from my above post.

Again, this is done for all new soldiers, and new junior leaders.

The plan is to then move on to all leadership courses.  For current qualified leaders, briefings can be booked by units to arrange for SB staff to present the course to them.

The training is now here, and available.

dileas

tess

 

[X-mo-1979]

You are providing us with an excellent example of what should be done, and how.

My question is this: How do we train our junior (and not so junior) leaders to do what X-Mo is doing?

Cheers mate.

As 48th had said the training is being put in place,but sometimes the army medium tends to dull it down.My suggestion to every leader is to take the time to study it yourself.On combat,On Killing,etc.
My keen interest came when I realised after 10 years in the army I had never killed a person.Never been in a huge fire fight.So I began to question myself as to how I would react.I therefore looked at what I could do to ensure I wasn't a failure in combat to my best ability.I had job knowledge down,I had my career courses done.I prepared myself the best I could for combat,to which I have reacted well.However some people I have seen do not react well to stress,or do not react to it in an effective way.And sometimes bad stuff F's people up.Period.

Helping myself prepare has allowed me to effectively look after my troop's.

A few things I would like to see changed in the CF system.

-Don't split troops up upon return to Canada.Keep them together for a couple months before posting/changing jobs etc.

-More degree of conditioning for combat in training.I.E the heck with figure 11 targets get dummy's that bleed.At a minimum dress the figure 11's in clothing.

I have seen some funny things such as people trying to put tools away under fire.Conditioning in Canada being at fault.( I know some TQ's would be happy,kids saving torque wrenches under fire ;D)

Conditioning needs to happen at all levels.Mental as well.

 

[OldSolduer]

In my mind, mental prep is 90% of the preparations. We used to show movies of Army Medicine in Vietnam, but someone complained and it was dropped.  That helps you prep for combat mentally. You will see things that are way out there, and you've never expected to see. Prepare mentally as well as physically. Game face on!

Peer support is essential as well when one of your mates runs into trouble.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2008/12/27/7858571-sun.html

Mental problems ignored: Mother
By DAN MCCAFFERY, SUN MEDIA

SARNIA -- The Sarnia mother of a soldier who came back from Afghanistan with deep emotional scars says it's time for Ottawa to do more to help Canadian veterans of the conflict.
Ann LeClair made that comment in the wake of a new report that says military personnel who have post-traumatic and operational stress injuries are not getting the care they need.

While armed forces leaders have talked about a strong commitment to deal with the disorder, the commitment hasn't reached down to the community level, interim military ombudsman Mary McFadyen said.
There is a lack of care and support across the country, she said in the 62-page report.
LeClair said the report is bang on.

But identifying the problem isn't good enough, she said. "The biggest problem is we've had a lot of talk and no action.
"That's where my frustration is."
In fact, the government has implemented only 18 of more than 30 recommendations from an ombudsman's report that came out in 2002, she said.
"I find that really, really appalling, and really, really sad. It's an indication of how much weight (such reports) carry. The report causes a ripple for a few days and then disappears. I'm hoping for a public inquiry."

LeClair's 25-year-old son Cpl. Travis Schouten, returned from serving with the Canadian military in Afghanistan with serious emotional problems, flashbacks and nightmares. But when she went to see her son's supervising officer in Petawawa, she was told to suck it up, she said.
Post-traumatic stress is common and soldiers are not getting the care and attention they deserve, LeClair repeatedly told military officials, politicians and news reporters this year.

In her report, McFadyen confirmed such incidents as the one LeClair encountered in Petawawa are happening, based on interviews with 360 people across the country.
"Clearly, the environment in which Canada's military has been operating in recent years has changed dramatically," McFadyen said in the report.
"With the mission in Afghanistan, the level and intensity of combat operations have increased substantially. A significant number of soldiers are returning from overseas deployments suffering with mental health issues," McFadyen wrote.

It has also become evident that the Canadian Forces and Canadian Forces members are strained almost to the breaking point."

 

[Marshall]

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2008/12/27/7858571-sun.html

Mental problems ignored: Mother
By DAN MCCAFFERY, SUN MEDIA

SARNIA -- The Sarnia mother of a soldier who came back from Afghanistan with deep emotional scars says it's time for Ottawa to do more to help Canadian veterans of the conflict.
Ann LeClair made that comment in the wake of a new report that says military personnel who have post-traumatic and operational stress injuries are not getting the care they need.

While armed forces leaders have talked about a strong commitment to deal with the disorder, the commitment hasn't reached down to the community level, interim military ombudsman Mary McFadyen said.
There is a lack of care and support across the country, she said in the 62-page report.
LeClair said the report is bang on.

But identifying the problem isn't good enough, she said. "The biggest problem is we've had a lot of talk and no action.
"That's where my frustration is."
In fact, the government has implemented only 18 of more than 30 recommendations from an ombudsman's report that came out in 2002, she said.
"I find that really, really appalling, and really, really sad. It's an indication of how much weight (such reports) carry. The report causes a ripple for a few days and then disappears. I'm hoping for a public inquiry."

LeClair's 25-year-old son Cpl. Travis Schouten, returned from serving with the Canadian military in Afghanistan with serious emotional problems, flashbacks and nightmares. But when she went to see her son's supervising officer in Petawawa, she was told to suck it up, she said.
Post-traumatic stress is common and soldiers are not getting the care and attention they deserve, LeClair repeatedly told military officials, politicians and news reporters this year.

In her report, McFadyen confirmed such incidents as the one LeClair encountered in Petawawa are happening, based on interviews with 360 people across the country.
"Clearly, the environment in which Canada's military has been operating in recent years has changed dramatically," McFadyen said in the report.
"With the mission in Afghanistan, the level and intensity of combat operations have increased substantially. A significant number of soldiers are returning from overseas deployments suffering with mental health issues," McFadyen wrote.

It has also become evident that the Canadian Forces and Canadian Forces members are strained almost to the breaking point."

A little harsh. But I can probably see the officer getting those comments/questions all the time so he'd probably be fed up, probably no excuse still though.. I have been seeing more and more news coverage about this on both the Canadian and American sides lately. Just this morning CNN was talking about some of the American vets and their problems. With all the publicity do you think that the Forces may act? (or act faster if they already are, sorry)

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

X

 

[Marshall]

Yeah I read 48th Regulator's posts a little earlier (after I posted). Its good to see, I was more wondering if they would try to address it more publicly or something of that sort. To kinda cut the media from blab'n on about it. If it is even possible to make them quiet (but I was not trying to say that they were not doing anything about stressed soldiers - my apologies ).

 

[geo]

Think that in part, we are our own worst enemy.
The macho guy who has seen all and who is still interested in advancing within his unit / trade.
He's scared to pipe up that he has trouble sleeping at night - trouble dealing with what he has done or seen.
He's terrified on having his fitness being put under the microscope.

Until that problem is resolved, our soldiers will continue to slip through the cracks.

 

[OldSolduer]

Think that in part, we are our own worst enemy.
The macho guy who has seen all and who is still interested in advancing within his unit / trade.
He's scared to pipe up that he has trouble sleeping at night - trouble dealing with what he has done or seen.
He's terrified on having his fitness being put under the microscope.

Until that problem is resolved, our soldiers will continue to slip through the cracks.

Agreed. If you had a sprained ankle, you'd go to the UMS. If you have an OSI, admit it and get help. Please.

 

[geo]

To a lot of "us" musclebound combat arms types, admitting to having OSI/PTSD is an admission of weakness.  The ingrained belief / fear that showing a weakness is tanamount to ending your career advancement is what stops many from getting the help that they need.  It's only when you slip up and (I hope) a friend frog marches you up to the clinic for help
At work (Area HQ) I read (certainly weekly occurence) incidents of serving members who are no longer able to cope - doing some extremely desparate (& stupid) things that no one in their right mind would consider doing.
Never a dull moment

 

[OldSolduer]

Then we have to change the mindset of the Army. If a soldier comes on PT with a bad knee....and won't go to the UMS on sick parade, I will order him to.
Now if on of our soldiers has an OSI and we see or hear of him/her doing things out of character....would it not be incumbent upon us to tell him/her to seek help? Confidentiality must be maintained as well.

The way I see it, that would be the wise course of action.