To be or not to be Royal...that is the question.

[mdh]

But, as to the actual question: I am ambivalent.  I used to be pro- 'Royal Canadian Navy' but after looking at the history of anglophilia and nationalism, perhaps the nationalists deserve this tidbit.  Then I can safely stuff a handkerchief up my cuff and say, 'Canadahr.'

I'm glad someone noted the political aspect of this debate. The term "royal" was associated with the anglophone majority (the naval debates mentioned above took place during an eruption of neo-imperialist sentiment in English Canada preceding the Boer War and leading up to 1914) - and the military was considered very much an anglo-dominated institution by Quebec nationalists (especially when seen against the history of the Conscription Crisis in both the First and Second wars).  Ex-Dragoon and Aesop081 make the finer point that going back to the past is not an option (and I'm someone who grew up in an RCAF family) - and for all the sturm and drang about unification we ought to look on its positive benefits - we actually have the potential for inter-arms cooperation that was probably unthinkable in the old military system - certainly the mobility for individual members has been improved so that tankers can become sailors and vice versa - a situation that would been practically unheard of in the past. We need to make the current system work better and continue to look to the future - if there's too much BS (as ex-dragoon suggests) for the ORs, then it's something we need to eliminate by instituting far reaching and dramatic reforms.

cheers, mdh

 

[Gino]

I'm glad someone noted the political aspect of this debate. The term "royal" was associated with the anglophone majority (the naval debates mentioned above took place during an eruption of neo-imperialist sentiment in English Canada preceding the Boer War and leading up to 1914) - and the military was considered very much an anglo-dominated institution by Quebec nationalists (especially when seen against the history of the Conscription Crisis in both the First and Second wars).  Ex-Dragoon and Aesop081 make the finer point that going back to the past is not an option (and I'm someone who grew up in an RCAF family) - and for all the sturm and drang about unification we ought to look on its positive benefits - we actually have the potential for inter-arms cooperation that was probably unthinkable in the old military system - certainly the mobility for individual members has been improved so that tankers can become sailors and vice versa - a situation that would been practically unheard of in the past. We need to make the current system work better and continue to look to the future - if there's too much BS (as ex-dragoon suggests) for the ORs, then it's something we need to eliminate by instituting far reaching and dramatic reforms.

cheers, mdh

Thirty-eight years after the RCN ceased to exist, the navy is still an anglo-dominated institution.  Have you thought that it might have been more than the name and the uniforms?  Perhaps there's a lack of awareness of the navy in Quebec?  Perhaps it's the fact that almost all Francophones in the navy must be able to operate in English because it is the international language of maritime operations and NATO interoperability.  Unification did practically nothing for service cooperation other than streamline some of the admin tail and this was happening anyway with integration.  We are far behind our counterparts in the UK and US, who have separate services, when in comes to "jointness".  Don't even get me started on your BS theory.  Talk about the tail wagging the dog.  Perhaps we should check and see which sailors don't like wearing uniforms and then we can eliminate them through far reaching and dramatic reforms.  After all, we wouldn't wanted unsatisfied service personnel.  You must be joking.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Perhaps we should check and see which sailors don't like wearing uniforms and then we can eliminate them through far reaching and dramatic reforms.  After all, we wouldn't wanted unsatisfied service personnel.  You must be joking.

Oh please....: spare us the semantics, what does this have to do with being in the (Royal) Canadian Navy?

 

[Gino]

Oh please....: spare us the semantics, what does this have to do with being in the (Royal) Canadian Navy?

I believe you must mean dramatics.  To answer your question, nothing.  I was merely responding to the suggestions from you and mdh that we should look at eliminating customs and traditions to keep sailors happy.  That was the essence of what you gents meant by getting rid of BS, wasn't it?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

So what is your great plan to keep sailors happy Mr. Wisdom?

I believe you must mean dramatics.

You are correct thanks for the correction.

 

[mdh]

To answer your question, nothing.  I was merely responding to the suggestions from you and mdh that

we should look at eliminating customs and traditions to keep sailors happy.

Actually I was addressing the issue from a broader perspective - quality of life, career progression, opportunities for increased responsibility (admittedly a tad off topic) - that sort of thing.

As for eliminating customs and traditions, depends on which ones you're talking about; a lot of naval traditions have evolved over the last century, no?

And as for the tail wagging the dog, if that means I'm concerned about what's going on with the NCO corps, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

To re-address the original point of the thread, I don't think restoring "royal" would have quite the impact you seem to suggest in transforming the morale, demeanour and outlook of the CF's rank and file.

cheers, mdh

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

To re-address the original point of the thread, I don't think restoring "royal" would have quite the impact you seem to suggest in transforming the morale, demeanour and outlook of the CF's rank and file.

Exactly.

 

[Gino]

So what is your great plan to keep sailors happy Mr. Wisdom?

You are correct thanks for the correction.

Hey, I don't claim to have all the answers, but I really dislike the knee-jerk reaction that some people have that all we have to do is water down all those things that make us unique and different from civilians in order to for everyone to be happy.  We've been doing that for forty years and I honestly don't think sailors are any happier now than they were then.  Tell me what the major dissatisfiers are in the navy, besides Colours and going away to sea, and maybe I can come up with something.  Not that anyone would listen.

At any rate, to get back to the original argument, getting our "Royal" back might not make a huge difference to the rank and file, but there are some it would give great pride to.  Is that worth nothing?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Pride is always worth something, that was never my point, my point is we could be proud of our Navy whether or not there was a Royal attached to the title or not.

 

[Gino]

And as for the tail wagging the dog, if that means I'm concerned about what's going on with the NCO corps, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

What I really meant was that we used to expect our people to adapt and internalize the values of the institution.  Now it would appear that some people think it should be the other way around.  Once you accept that premise, it's a few short years from having everyone wearing ponytails and smokin' dope while wearing coveralls and ballcaps for all occasions.

 

[Gino]

Pride is always worth something, that was never my point, my point is we could be proud of our Navy whether or not there was a Royal attached to the title or not.

Yes, but I for one would be prouder with, and I know I am not the only one.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Sorry Gino you might wish for the days of flogging around the fleet were back but I don't, it never accomplished anything.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Yes, but I for one would be prouder with, and I know I am not the only one.

Then to each their own, does not make either us the better sailor then the other by having a differing view.

 

[Gino]

Sorry Gino you might wish for the days of flogging around the fleet were back but I don't, it never accomplished anything.

Did I say anything of the sort or that could even be remotely interpreted as such?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well we were talking about customs and traditions...the Royal Navy did it for years before stopping back in the late 1700s, just illistrating some customs and traditions are useless.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I am not sure why you cannot respect the fact I don't share your view we would be a better navy if we had the Royal attached.

 

[Gino]

I am not sure why you cannot respect the fact I don't share your view we would be a better navy if we had the Royal attached.

It' not that, it's probably the underlining republican sentiment that I believe you alluded to in an earlier post that I have a very difficult time respecting. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

It' not that, it's probably the underlining republican sentiment that I believe you alluded to in an earlier post that I have a very difficult time respecting. 

Whether I am a republican or not, its of no concern of yours dude. I know where my duty lies and thats with Canada.

 

[Gino]

Whether I am a republican or not, its of no concern of yours dude. I know where my duty lies and thats with Canada.

Perhaps not, but you wanted to know.  Just never forget your oath.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I would not be still in if the service never meany anything to me Gino so spare us the holier then thou atitiude.