Time to Arm Cenotaph Guard? (split from Domestic Terrorism)

[expwor]

"All" civilians? No. There are many people who should not have guns.

Or cars, or children.

Very few would seek to arm themselves anyway, even if there was a legal ability to do so.

Only a small (single-digit) percentage of US citizens have concealed carry permits, yet even that small number provides a significant deterrence to criminals. Yes, the US murder rate is higher than hours, but that is largely fuelled by gang activity. Many jurisdictions have lower murder rates than similar jurisdictions in Canada, and their overall violent crime rate is lower than ours.

Concealed carry permit holders have lower arrest and conviction rates than police have, shoot more criminals per capita, and fewer innocent bystanders per capita.

Most of them shoot far more frequently than many police members, have a greater incentive to stay out of legal trouble, and are better able to determine who is a justifiable target and who is not.

Handguns are simple machines with few controls. The laws governing self-defence are not complex. This is not rocket surgery.

And a lot of people can be trained and armed for the cost of one military funeral, and even more for the cost of a state funeral.

First my question was more rhetorical than a suggestion.  And I added the caveat "with the proviso they are properly trained"
JMO but training to use weapons in a legal Use Of Force scenario is more than learning how to aim and shoot.  It is also understanding the legal framework that deadly force can be used
Not all situations will require deadly force, are sentries, their bodyguards, (even private citizens) going to be trained to use other use of force techniques (physical handling/arrest and control techniques, batons & police billies, tasers, etc) or is a firearm going to be the first last and only option available

Tom

 

[cryco]

"All" civilians? No. There are many people who should not have guns.

Or cars, or children.

Very few would seek to arm themselves anyway, even if there was a legal ability to do so.

Only a small (single-digit) percentage of US citizens have concealed carry permits, yet even that small number provides a significant deterrence to criminals. Yes, the US murder rate is higher than hours, but that is largely fuelled by gang activity. Many jurisdictions have lower murder rates than similar jurisdictions in Canada, and their overall violent crime rate is lower than ours.

Concealed carry permit holders have lower arrest and conviction rates than police have, shoot more criminals per capita, and fewer innocent bystanders per capita.

Most of them shoot far more frequently than many police members, have a greater incentive to stay out of legal trouble, and are better able to determine who is a justifiable target and who is not.

Handguns are simple machines with few controls. The laws governing self-defense are not complex. This is not rocket surgery.

And a lot of people can be trained and armed for the cost of one military funeral, and even more for the cost of a state funeral.

I'm curious to know where you came across these stats. I actually looked up the total concealed carry permits issued in all states, and found the total to be surprisingly high - it also corresponds to your low single digit percentage - it comes out to about 9.5 million concealed carry permits that are active, and this doesn't count Vermont, which is completely unrestricted ie anyone can conceal the moment they own a gun. Kinda freaky.
I'd be all for allowing this in Canada, assuming some pretty strict requirements are met.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm curious to know where you came across these stats. I actually looked up the total concealed carry permits issued in all states, and found the total to be surprisingly high - it also corresponds to your low single digit percentage - it comes out to about 9.5 million concealed carry permits that are active, and this doesn't count Vermont, which is completely unrestricted ie anyone can conceal the moment they own a gun. Kinda freaky.
I'd be all for allowing this in Canada, assuming some pretty strict requirements are met.

You know; when I was a kid way back when, in Saskatchewan, they used to have free Hunter Safety programs.  We learned all the basics about safety and still to this day I am surprised at all the Hunters who have "mishaps", some quite fatal.  Can you imagine how many "mishaps" we will have with enacting concealed carry permits here? 

 

[Jed]

You know; when I was a kid way back when, in Saskatchewan, they used to have free Hunter Safety programs.  We learned all the basics about safety and still to this day I am surprised at all the Hunters who have "mishaps", some quite fatal.  Can you imagine how many "mishaps" we will have with enacting concealed carry permits here?

Would there be an increase in mishaps? No doubt, just like there would be using any relatively new 'tool' on the job. You can't fix stupid no matter how much safety is liberally applied. I doubt it would be extensive though and the net value of allowing CCW would be highly beneficial for personal security and force protection.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You know; when I was a kid way back when, in Saskatchewan, they used to have free Hunter Safety programs.  We learned all the basics about safety and still to this day I am surprised at all the Hunters who have "mishaps", some quite fatal.  Can you imagine how many "mishaps" we will have with enacting concealed carry permits here?

Actually the stats are there and indictment rates for firearm offenses which include everything from exposing the gun, murder, walking into a post office, ND is about 1% of the total permits. That is with minimal or no required training.

The current ATC does require adequate training, however that is not spelled out for the purposes of defense of life. They are afraid to publish a standard as they know people will devise a course and people will pay and take it to meet that standard, removing another barrier to obtaining this mostly illusionary permit.

 

[63 Delta]

This morning on my way to NDHQ I stopped by the National War Memorial to pay my respects. It was very moving to see the support from the Canadian Public.

But I was also moved by something I wasn't expecting. A retired US Marine was patrolling the War Memorial in his Full Uniform at 0700 this morning. He had his red truck parked to the South of the memorial with Marine on the side, and I can only imagine he was there awhile before I arrived.

 

[George Wallace]

This morning on my way to NDHQ I stopped by the National War Memorial to pay my respects. It was very moving to see the support from the Canadian Public.

But I was also moved by something I wasn't expecting. A retired US Marine was patrolling the War Memorial in his Full Uniform at 0700 this morning. He had his red truck parked to the South of the memorial with Marine on the side, and I can only imagine he was there awhile before I arrived.

Just a little more on the retired US Marine Major: 

Major R. E. G. Sinke Jr. enlisted in the Marine Corps and fought in Vietnam from 1966-1971, earning five Purple Hearts. He is married, has three children, and owns and operates a horse ranch in Ontario, Canada. He is surrounded by farmers -- “men who are of stalwart character and great integrity and as close as I will ever get to living among Marines again.”

He is the author of a Trilogy on Vietnam: When None Of Their Dreams Were Dead

Global News coverage of his Guard of the Cenotaph on Friday.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

I think the biggest reason not to arm the guards is very simple.
Anyone who knows me from my army days know I am a lousy drill guy, but I always did my best. But there are things out there you cannot account for and good old murphy law takes control.
1) super hot day and guard in the hot sun with a fully loaded weapon, passes out.  Anyone here ever seen a guy pass out on parade? It happens. Now down soldier and fully loaded weapon.  Not a good mix.
2) bad guy comes up and takes weapon away at gun point or by shooting the guard. He now has a  C7A1 or C7A2 with ammo. I do not even think bolts should be issued for guard duty at tourist locations just in case, so no working weapon can fall into wrong hands. I was part of the base security force at CFB Toronto in the early 90s.  We were not far from the rougher neighbourhoods of North York and we had C7s issued as part of the exercises of guarding gates and walk in entrances at the base. Always worried that some one would drive by with a weapon with bullets in it and would want my C7 late at night when on guard duty. I was armed but unarmed at the same time. Even the kids getting on the TTC in the morning at the Bus Stop thought we had fake weapons.
3) Does a guard doing the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier have the chance to look around and see any threats coming his or her way. They are doing the  duties they are assigned. Not suppose to be looking around for threats and whatever.  I was always in trouble for wandering eyes when on parade, looking other than straight ahead.
4) Soldiers under attack do not do this sort of guard duty.  Armed duties are assigned when there is a threat and they are put on alert.
5) I also hate to say some tourists just get too close and want to pose for pictures, or touch the soldier or what ever, the tourist does not need to be put in danger because of the loaded weapons.
6) Issue the guards some light body armour not bullets.
7) Remember not every soldier is a sniper or trained marksmen and bullets fly. The Head lines would be huge if an armed soldier on guard duty shot a tourist or a innocent person just who happened to walk into the middle of another attack.

 

[George Wallace]

:goodpost:

Good points and well said.

 

[Jed]

It is the easiest thing in the world to make up scenarios why you don't need a weapon (some sort of firearm with ammunition) available.
This is just like the old supply axiom, if I issued you that pair of socks then I wouldn't have them in stores.
If you need the additional protection of a weapon than make it available with the appropriate precautions. Training, ROE's, whatever.

Have some faith in training, good leadership and good soldiering.

 

[George Wallace]

It is the easiest thing in the world to make up scenarios why you don't need a weapon (some sort of firearm with ammunition) available.
This is just like the old supply axiom, if I issued you that pair of socks then I wouldn't have them in stores.
If you need the additional protection of a weapon than make it available with the appropriate precautions. Training, ROE's, whatever.

Have some faith in training, good leadership and good soldiering.

As pointed out, the Guard on duty at the Cenotaphs across our country are not Security Guards monitoring all their surroundings.  They are 'ceremonial' starring straight ahead; not surveying all their surroundings, and looking more often at the ground at their feet.  Easy prey to any attacker.  Giving them a loaded wpn only increases the likelihood that an attacker would now possess a fully automatic wpn with a large capacity mag.  Leave the people responsible for carrying loaded wpns do their job; the Police. 

 

[Jed]

OK, I buy that. If there enough police to do the job. For Ottawa and other major centres that works out fine. What happens when you are somewhere and there are no police or (MPs) around?

I think the CAF, properly trained and led, can look after themselves when need be.

 

[George Wallace]

OK, I buy that. If there enough police to do the job. For Ottawa and other major centres that works out fine. What happens when you are somewhere and there are no police or (MPs) around?

I think the CAF, properly trained and led, can look after themselves when need be.

Have you ever seen a military function done in Public, including ceremonies at a any cenotaph, that did not have some sort of police presence?

 

[Tibbson]

OK, I buy that. If there enough police to do the job. For Ottawa and other major centres that works out fine. What happens when you are somewhere and there are no police or (MPs) around?

I think the CAF, properly trained and led, can look after themselves when need be.

And just who is going to pay for this police protection?  In Toronto, for example, movie shoots or sports events that require police presence have the option to hire off duty officers on what is referred to as "paid duties".  The going rate for such duties, when I was posted to the old CFB Toronto, was $140 an hour per officer hired.  Using that as a start point....two officers (because they don't work alone) working 8 hours a day and we are looking at a cost of approx $2240 a day, but that doesn't count any extra costs such as their having a vehicle assigned to them as well.  Multiply that by roughly 7 months and we have an anticipated cost of over $470,000 just for the national war memorial.  Even allowing for a lower daily rate per officer for Ottawa that is still a heck of a lot of money more then DND, the National Capital Commission, Ottawa PD or even Directorate of History and Heritage has at their disposal for such security. 

That just leaves CAF personnel however I can't justify in my own mind having CAF members, armed, on duty in Canada unless they are either performing designated law enforcement duties or are otherwise called out under some formal aid to civil power requirement.  I believe our laws and regulations are actually structured to implement such restrictions for a purpose.  In a civilized country such as Canada we just don't have armed troops among the population. 

One of military events such as Freedom of the City parades and other such public events do normally have a police presence but those are normally one day events that cities support as part of their normal duties. Then again, that police presence may be paid for depending upon the event.  I know that in most cities if an organization wants to hold a parade for example then there is a licensing fee that can be pretty hefty which goes to such increased security and cleaning costs because of the parade or event.  Long standing details such as 7 months of police protection at a National (or even local) War Memorial are a whole other topic. 

 

[Jed]

Have you ever seen a military function done in Public, including ceremonies at a any cenotaph, that did not have some sort of police presence?

Yes, but only in small towns. With a low threat assessment. This does not count times overseas, when security duties were handled by other country's military etc.

 

[Jed]

And just who is going to pay for this police protection?  In Toronto, for example, movie shoots or sports events that require police presence have the option to hire off duty officers on what is referred to as "paid duties".  The going rate for such duties, when I was posted to the old CFB Toronto, was $140 an hour per officer hired.  Using that as a start point....two officers (because they don't work alone) working 8 hours a day and we are looking at a cost of approx $2240 a day, but that doesn't count any extra costs such as their having a vehicle assigned to them as well.  Multiply that by roughly 7 months and we have an anticipated cost of over $470,000 just for the national war memorial.  Even allowing for a lower daily rate per officer for Ottawa that is still a heck of a lot of money more then DND, the National Capital Commission, Ottawa PD or even Directorate of History and Heritage has at their disposal for such security. 

That just leaves CAF personnel however I can't justify in my own mind having CAF members, armed, on duty in Canada unless they are either performing designated law enforcement duties or are otherwise called out under some formal aid to civil power requirement.  I believe our laws and regulations are actually structured to implement such restrictions for a purpose.  In a civilized country such as Canada we just don't have armed troops among the population. 

One of military events such as Freedom of the City parades and other such public events do normally have a police presence but those are normally one day events that cities support as part of their normal duties. Then again, that police presence may be paid for depending upon the event.  I know that in most cities if an organization wants to hold a parade for example then there is a licensing fee that can be pretty hefty which goes to such increased security and cleaning costs because of the parade or event.  Long standing details such as 7 months of police protection at a National (or even local) War Memorial are a whole other topic.

The world is changing. I think we are dreaming if we can just stick our head in the sand and not take some actions to protect ourselves in the present day threat environment. We don't have to put all of our faith in the Police Forces and participate in a police state empire building enterprise.

I am a big fan of Canada's Police Forces but I feel that all those type A personalities together tend to place too much self importance on their own organizations. They all want big budgets and tend to suggest that individuals don't need to protect themselves. Even the best Police Force can not be there with 100% reliability.

How strongly do we want to maintain our pride and way of life and not knuckle under to ISIL radicals and other organizations of this ilk?

 

[Tibbson]

The world is changing. I think we are dreaming if we can just stick our head in the sand and not take some actions to protect ourselves in the present day threat environment. We don't have to put all of our faith in the Police Forces and participate in a police state empire building enterprise.

I am a big fan of Canada's Police Forces but I feel that all those type A personalities together tend to place too much self importance on their own organizations. They all want big budgets and tend to suggest that individuals don't need to protect themselves. Even the best Police Force can not be there with 100% reliability.

How strongly do we want to maintain our pride and way of life and not knuckle under to ISIL radicals and other organizations of this ilk?

I hate to think what life will be like once the police need to not only conduct the policing they do now PLUS the additional policing required by having an armed citizenry.  No, wait, I don't have to envision it.  I only need to look south to see the future with more guns running around.  If you think police are looking for bigger budgets now just wait to see what they need if we ever get concealed or open carry. 

But, anyway, this is getting way off topic.

 

[mariomike]

In Toronto, for example, movie shoots or sports events that require police presence have the option to hire off duty officers on what is referred to as "paid duties".  The going rate for such duties, when I was posted to the old CFB Toronto, was $140 an hour per officer hired. 

Toronto Police Service
Central Paid Duty Office
The hourly rate of pay as of July 1st, 2014:
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/paidduty/rates.php

 

[Jed]

I hate to think what life will be like once the police need to not only conduct the policing they do now PLUS the additional policing required by having an armed citizenry.  No, wait, I don't have to envision it.  I only need to look south to see the future with more guns running around.  If you think police are looking for bigger budgets now just wait to see what they need if we ever get concealed or open carry. 

But, anyway, this is getting way off topic.

You just proved my point. Well managed CCW means more GOOD GUYS have guns with no tax payer cost.

 

[Tibbson]

You just proved my point. Well managed CCW means more GOOD GUYS have guns with no tax payer cost.

No it doesn't.  It means more pers running around with guns and increased policing costs when someone goes all George Zimmerman or MichI eal David Dunn on people.  Bad guys who otherwise wouldn't use a gun will now get one knowing they will need it and the issue will just continue to spiral.  I lived for 4 years in the States and personally if Canada ever adopted US style gun laws I'd be looking to emigrate.  I just don't believe their way is any better.