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The utility of three military colleges, funded undergrad degrees; Officer trg & the need for a degre

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
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Is that far enough from "in front of my face" for you ?

I could introduce you to a few of my Corporals who's speaking abilities and CF/GoC knowledge would make you eat crow.
Possibly yes. I am sure you do have a Cpl around who can speak wonderful, and is well read on CF/GoC knowledge. Is he the exception or the norm?

Regarding OPME courses, I discovered all you have to do is figure out where the search function is in Adobe reader and you can pass one of their exams. Demonstrated by a MCpl who was writing test at same time as me. He did well without even reading the material....but that is another point.
 
Pieman said:
Do you help them tie their shoes? From your comments it sounds like you need to do that for them sometimes. ;)

Have you ever heard the expression "so smart he's stupid" ?

I've had those officers too.

I would consider you one of the NCM on the more capable end of the spectrum not part of the bulk of the population.

Don't be fooled, my knuckles still drag when i walk.
 
agc said:
I doubt that an extra year of basic training for in service selection plans or RMC ROTP students would be useful in any way.

I am not saying an extra year of basic training. I am suggesting the first year of university is taken at RMC in a military environment. The courses taken would be university-level courses (6 OPME's and 4 other military related courses that would be beneficial to junior officers). Also that credits be given for BMOQ and MOC training for cadets to use as electives at civilian university (or RMC) instead of taking basket-weaving or some other course.

Shouldn't the selection process itself take care of this?  Not saying that it does necessarily, but it should.

I agree it should. I could pick out 6 or so from my BMOQ serial that shouldn't have passed and a couple that joined just to get the first year free of school at a civy university (since if you VR before start of second year there is no financial penalty). By having all cadets to spend the first 9 months living in a military college followed by 3 months of basic and the fact that civy university is off the table for there "free year" could dissuade some.

I doubt a lot of these civilian universities will grant credits for environmental training, drill or health and fitness.  Also, some of them may not extend their admissions for the extra year that the civvy-u applicants would require.  The extra time and co-ordination here would probably mean a lot of offers eventually being rescinded.

Again, I agree that under the current structure it would be difficult. This would have to be a coordinated effort between the CF/RMC/ and some civilian universities to establish specific degrees that would apply to this or lists of acceptable transfer credits the universities would accept. This isn't unprecedented either, there are Defence Management diploma programs at some colleges that combine RMC OPME's and college courses resulting in a diploma.

My university has a steering committee to determine new ways to recruit students and potential new degree paths. I spoke with one of the representatives and they thought it was very interesting.

An extra year tacked on the beginning will not decrease the wait time before commissioning or save any money.  In fact, it will cost extra money to build the facilities at RMC to do the extra training you want to have there.  And it will cost more again to move cadets to civvy-u after first year.  Also, none of the training you proposed equates to any real on job experience.

I don't know capacities or anything like that at RMC, but it would be no different than RMC first-year students except all scholastic work would be military related, so I don't see what kind of facilities would need to be built. The cadets would still head to St-Jean for BMOQ. If some civy u's would accept the military training provided in lieu of general electives (and core courses for the right degree programs) there would be time and money saved. If a 4-year degree is completed in 3-years (1 year at RMC, 2 summer terms equalling one year of military training, and 2 years at civy u) you are saving one year of time.

I didn't think of the moving costs for the cadets though, that is a good point. I also didn't say it is a perfect plan and it is the only way the CF should proceed. I'm just throwing out ideas I have had as an OCdt trying to complete my degree as fast as possible and the success I have had with my school providing credit for military courses and training.
 
Pieman said:
Training that required a great deal of mental focus, study, and a course that had a fairly high failure rate as it requires more intellectual capability than most NCM WO positions.

I got exactly zero training for my current billet.
 
Don't be fooled, my knuckles still drag when i walk.
I suspect probably not along the ground as much as others who are less educated than yourself.

I got exactly zero training for my current billet.
Interesting...so someone could just walk in with no specialized training and do your job?
 
Pieman said:
I suspect probably not along the ground as much as others who are less educated than yourself.

I suspect you generalize far too much. I used to be the same trade as you and even then, it was not like you are making it out to be.


Interesting...so someone could just walk in with no specialized training and do your job?

Pretty much. I'm not even from the MOS that traditionally fills that billet.

Anyways, we're well off-track.
 
Pieman said:
I suspect probably not along the ground as much as others who are less educated than yourself.

Interesting...so someone could just walk in with no specialized training and do your job?


It is fairly normal, a few years ago (over 20, actually) my boss (a two star) sat me down and said "what do you know about __[subject]__?" "Nothing," I replied. "Oh pity," said the boss, you're now in charge of __[subject]__ for the CF, and, actually, all of DND." I like to think I did a pretty good job ...
 
Perhaps you two could take a measuring stick outside and check to see which is bigger, NCM or Officer?  (Pieman and CDN Aviator)  ;D
 
Anyways, we're well off-track.
Agreed.

erhaps you two could take a measuring stick outside and check to see which is bigger, NCM or Officer?  (Pieman and CDN Aviator)
We would need an Officer to step up for comparison then.
 
Ok, lets get this topic back on track please.......

Thanks,
MILNET.CA MENTOR
 
RDJP said:
Seeing as there's been no official talk of removing the ROTP program, then the initial discussion on the feasibility of having three military colleges could continue. Because I don't see them all disappearing anytime soon.

You're right. Despite any disagreements any of us have over the merits of a degreed officer corps, I would say a degreed officer corps is here to stay.

2010newbie said:
I am not saying an extra year of basic training. I am suggesting the first year of university is taken at RMC in a military environment. The courses taken would be university-level courses (6 OPME's and 4 other military related courses that would be beneficial to junior officers). Also that credits be given for BMOQ and MOC training for cadets to use as electives at civilian university (or RMC) instead of taking basket-weaving or some other course.

<cut>

Again, I agree that under the current structure it would be difficult. This would have to be a coordinated effort between the CF/RMC/ and some civilian universities to establish specific degrees that would apply to this or lists of acceptable transfer credits the universities would accept. This isn't unprecedented either, there are Defence Management diploma programs at some colleges that combine RMC OPME's and college courses resulting in a diploma.

The problem I see with your idea is relying on various universities to cooperate. That's great that your university gave you credits and stuff, I tried similar things to get done faster and was basically told in politer terms to STFU by administration.

It could potentially work the other way though. OCdts could be told "you have to do x,y,z type courses at your respective civilian university. RMC will accept these courses as transfer credits, and your 4th year will be at RMC, and you will receive your degree RMC in (insert program here)." I don't know how this would affect RMC's status of being an accredited university though.

Here's a random and poorly done example, but it should convey what I mean. I obviously am not even close enough to qualified to guess at what kind of curriculum would be best.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtxbZwzyv6c7dGdTX0JRSWtxT3YtTGE0ZV9iVkRUVkE
 
Would there be any significant savings in canning RMC altogether and just having ROTP and UT's attend Civvy U exclusively? Going to a civilian university might help expose OCdt's to all those different views and issues that seem to be so important...

 
Spectrum said:
Would there be any significant savings in canning RMC altogether and just having ROTP and UT's attend Civvy U exclusively? Going to a civilian university might help expose OCdt's to all those different views and issues that seem to be so important...

So you're saying DEO only?
 
RDJP said:
So you're saying DEO only?

He means instead of having undergrad programs at RMC, we turn to more of an American ROTC-esque style of officer education.
 
RDJP said:
So you're saying DEO only?

That's not DEO.  DEO is joining the CF with a degree already.  ROTP is getting the CF to pay for your schooling while you are studying.
 
Whoops, brain fart...I thought it meant have them complete a civilian university degree before being accepted.

Carry on... :-[
 
2010newbie said:
I am not saying an extra year of basic training.

Sure looks like it to me:

The term could start with the recruit week, FYOP, the school semesters, then finish with the completion of BMOQ. The school studies would focus on CF related courses (OPME's, Elemental specific courses, and whatever other junior officer courses are beneficial)

Most in service applicants end up being BMOQ bypasses (so also no need for anything that comes before it), and often have the required environmental training.  Usually they have some or all of their OPME credits as well.  The ROTP candidates usually do most of the rest of that stuff in the summer terms.  What time is being saved here?

I am suggesting the first year of university is taken at RMC in a military environment. The courses taken would be university-level courses (6 OPME's and 4 other military related courses that would be beneficial to junior officers). Also that credits be given for BMOQ and MOC training for cadets to use as electives at civilian university (or RMC) instead of taking basket-weaving or some other course.

All the in service guys have been in a military environment for a minimum of 4 years, usually a lot more.  The DEO guys will be put to work in a military environment right away.  The RMC guys too.  Are you just saying you wished you'd gone to RMC instead?

I agree it should. I could pick out 6 or so from my BMOQ serial that shouldn't have passed

Apparently, the CFLRS staff disagree.

and a couple that joined just to get the first year free of school at a civy university (since if you VR before start of second year there is no financial penalty). By having all cadets to spend the first 9 months living in a military college followed by 3 months of basic and the fact that civy university is off the table for there "free year" could dissuade some.

Why would swapping the location of a year of free education stop anyone from using the system?  Especially after you went out and convinced the civvy-u he really wants to go to that they should give full credit for all the work.  If you're saying we can get rid of the abuser after one year instead of having to keep him for 30: great IMO.

Again, I agree that under the current structure it would be difficult. This would have to be a coordinated effort between the CF/RMC/ and some civilian universities to establish specific degrees that would apply to this or lists of acceptable transfer credits the universities would accept. This isn't unprecedented either, there are Defence Management diploma programs at some colleges that combine RMC OPME's and college courses resulting in a diploma.

We have a list of degrees that are acceptable already.  If your university doesn't include the OPME credits in the program, you do them later on your own time.  Seems like a pretty small thing to do in exchange for a 100% scholarship at the university of your choice.

I don't know capacities or anything like that at RMC, but it would be no different than RMC first-year students except all scholastic work would be military related, so I don't see what kind of facilities would need to be built. The cadets would still head to St-Jean for BMOQ. If some civy u's would accept the military training provided in lieu of general electives (and core courses for the right degree programs) there would be time and money saved. If a 4-year degree is completed in 3-years (1 year at RMC, 2 summer terms equalling one year of military training, and 2 years at civy u) you are saving one year of time.

Sending all the officers there for their first year instead of less than half of them would require a lot more classrooms and professors.  Environmental training is usually conducted within the environment, where those training facilities already exist.  This would require posting a bunch of highly skilled people away from their operational bases, and rotating them through at a fairly high frequency to keep their skills up to date.

If some civvy-u would accept that, it would be great.  But then you have to wait on their PLAR process.  And if the specific degree can't be shortened by a whole year through this, you just turned a 3 or 4 year degree into a 4 or 5 year degree.

I didn't think of the moving costs for the cadets though, that is a good point. I also didn't say it is a perfect plan and it is the only way the CF should proceed. I'm just throwing out ideas I have had as an OCdt trying to complete my degree as fast as possible and the success I have had with my school providing credit for military courses and training.

RMC has a degree designed for producing officers as fast as possible:  the BMASc.  They grant credit for mil and second language trg, and can recognize previous post-secondary education.  It's not perfect either, but it's doing the job for the CF and me.  Maybe you picked the wrong entry plan for what you want.

If the CF needs degreed officers, it takes as long as it takes.  The CEOTP has given them a bit of a stop-gap measure in this regard, although it takes its fair share of criticism for not having enforced completion of the degree.  That said those of us selected under the plan now know the implications for not holding up our end of the bargain.  We're moving out of the environment where "as fast as possible" is the theme for skill production, because our manning levels are much closer to where they need to be.
 
If we accept that degrees are needed for all officers, and that the CF will continue to offer entry plans that pay for degrees, the only other avenue for savings I see would be shutting down RMC. We already have plenty of universities in Canada, and I don't really see the point in the CF having it's own. Plus sending people to civvy U should allow for a more varied perspective and schooling. RMC isn't quite the real military from what I've seen and what other's have said, but it's not your typical university either. I'd just assume let the OCdt's pick where they want to go on civvy st.

Would cutting the entirety of RMC save the CF a fair amount in terms of overhead, or is it just a drop in the bucket?

Without knowing the numbers and money aside, I see three potential points that would benefit the CF;

1. Canadians get more exposure to the CF and it's members

2. No "Ring Knockers"

3. OCdt's get a normal university experience with all the good and the bad that comes with it

At the end of the day though, if there are no true cost savings, I guess it would be pointless. Just a thought though.
 
Spectrum said:
Would cutting the entirety of RMC save the CF a fair amount in terms of overhead, or is it just a drop in the bucket?

Maybe?  Or, it could just obscure the real costs to the taxpayer behind subsidy provided through other channels and layers of government.
 
So if it's not really military, and it's not really civilian, what's the benefit? And does the benefit(s) outweight the costs of operating three of them?
 
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