The Training That We Should Undertake As Medics In Prep For The Box...

[medaid]

In reading and seeing somethings that are coming back from overseas with relations to medics, be it ours, the Americans or the British, it seems that the current ideals we are instilling in to our medics with regards to our roles on the battle field. The old ideas of being able to set up a static CCP has some what gone out the window has it not? Since our medics are constantly needed to be mobile, and evac to higher med facilities are more easily accessible with helos. The likelyhood  of a medic becoming underfire, and returning fire in defence of themselves and their casualties has also increased.

SO! Should we be emphasizing the ability for:
    - quick reaction drills under fire when transporting casualties
    - quick reaction drills under convoy ops
    - conduct sweep patrols (this may really be stretching it)

Since in this new fight, the front is fluid and mobile, and without distinctive uniforms, the enemy is constantly around as we have seen number of times with IEDs and suicide bombers. I remember one of my instructors at CTC stating that more and more CSS personnel are being targeted because the enemy thinks that we will be less prone to respond adequately like the Cbt Arms, and blow them to Kingdom Come. With this increased likelyhood, should we be either changing or alternating our training to fit the current state of war fighting? What do you think are some of the other skills a medic/medical personnel should be taught and the skills honed in?

I know its been a bit of a ramble...but...I really would like to know what some ppl's opinions are in the medical field.

 

[HItorMiss]

I think the training is just fine,on our Battlefield we never let our medic go unescorted thus he could concentrate on medical stuff, plus he had a TCCC qualified escort, till he got hit anyway (the escort not the medic). I really think Medic's just need to concentrate on treatment and stabilization of serious trauma, less on clinical diagnosis of cold and flu's and more on what to do with multiple GSW with MOI indicating internal blast trauma as well as penetrating shrapnel injuries, all while in austere conditions. It's needs to be fast and sometimes dirty medicine. The injured needs to be stabilised in minutes and ready for transport.

That's just my .02 though for what it's worth anyway.

*EDIT for grammer...poorly too

 

[medaid]

*EDIT for grammer...poorly too

Hahaha yes...me english much gooder when grammar not written with minimal sleep  ;D

 

[CBH99]

Its been a while since I wore a uniform (military) - anyhow...but...

I thought that with all this transformation of the Army, CCS troops were getting more relevant training, as per A-Stan?  I was under the impression, from threads here as well as the official Army website, that CSS troops were doing more realistic training in regards to convoy operations, battlefield movement, etc, etc.  I was also under the impression that CSS troops were focusing more on the 'soldier first' concept, i.e. more range time, and more time dedicated to training on the above.  Anybody care to educate me??

 

[HItorMiss]

MedTech I was talking about my grammar not your's trust me mine is very poor.

 

[boondocksaint]

The CSS that regularly leave the wire are well trained, and there is always a CBT arm element of some makeup with them to provide a fighting capability

in almost all TIC's where we had casualties we'd get them stabilized pretty much on the spot or in as safe an area as possilbe, the medics we had were all top notch, well trained, fought hard ( ours did anyway) and knew their business very well, the HLS ( helo landing site) has sorta replaced/augmented the CCP

CCP's still happen but, as you metioned the fluidity of the fighting doesnt make for establishing long term setups, and its very hard in that environment for dudes on the ground to find their way around looking for the CCP sometimes, so the CCP comes to them, either by vehicle, dismounts, or the helo,

convoy ops are huge, and that has been a heavy casualty spot for us, wont get into much of that here due to OPSEC, but drills drills drills, they dont all have to be the same, in fact i doubt any 2 platoons used the same ones, but all attachments know their role in every situation, and the medic is key

during one TIC our medic was calmly going through his ABC's, and we were being pummeled pretty hard at that point, and there he is just like we were in a classroom, had a very calming effect on everyone and did a great job on a bad day

 

[Armymedic]

In reading and seeing somethings that are coming back from overseas with relations to medics, be it ours, the Americans or the British, it seems that the current ideals we are instilling in to our medics with regards to our roles on the battle field. The old ideas of being able to set up a static CCP has some what gone out the window has it not? Since our medics are constantly needed to be mobile, and evac to higher med facilities are more easily accessible with helos. The likelyhood  of a medic becoming underfire, and returning fire in defence of themselves and their casualties has also increased.

The old idea of setting up a CCP has NOT gone out the window...in fact, it is more essential than ever before. The CCP needs to be in an area of cover and protection with proper security put out to support it.

The only problem we have in the CFMS is that we wait until OJT at the army unit to teach and instill tactical thinking into our medics. After they finish their civilian ambulance time, and have all their medical skills we should put them onto a tactical medicine course geared to their level of skills at that time. We should also do that with the QL 5's and 6's as well. This way army tactical thinking will be held throughout a medics career.


I could add more, but I'll save it for another day.

 

[boondocksaint]

The old idea of setting up a CCP has NOT gone out the window...in fact, it is more essential than ever before. The CCP needs to be in an area of cover and protection with proper security put out to support it.

The CCP does and most likely always will have a place, but, in over 90ish% ( this is my semi educated yet totally unscientific guess) of our instances with casualties, we had the ability to have helo's VERY fast, (opsec so no times) so the CCP was a sheltered area on the skirt of the HLS, on the fly, nothing fancy,

I know its been the primary, or atleast a big part of the CSM's job on the battlefield, but things just move to fast, most of the time, for a static CCP to be effective the way we've been taught over X many years

a CCP can be nothing more than a grid, a spot beside the CSM's LAV, or whatever he wants, but rarely did it evolve into a full blown conventional CCP as we know it, and that was a bad day

 

[medaid]

The only problem we have in the CFMS is that we wait until OJT at the army unit to teach and instill tactical thinking into our medics. After they finish their civilian ambulance time, and have all their medical skills we should put them onto a tactical medicine course geared to their level of skills at that time. We should also do that with the QL 5's and 6's as well. This way army tactical thinking will be held throughout a medics career.

I agree. However, in the MO the unit tend to exercise by itself, with minimal exposure to cbt arms, unless it's a bde level ex, where we are the primary med coverage, at least that's how it feels at my unit. In the instance of my unit, we rarely ever train on anything tactical. Sure we still do our ELOC and all that other good stuff of cam and concealment, and digging a shell scrape, but I guess my thinking is that we should be doing things more related to op readiness. I know for us, before we deploy with anyone we go through the work up period and dag just like everyone else. But, if we could have practiced most of the essential skills *other then the med skills* at the local unit level, and knowing WHAT to drill and hone in on, wouldnt it make it that much easier for the reserve medic to function more at ease when they're dealing with their first multiple-penetrating chest wound while under fire?

 

[boondocksaint]

sorta the old school embedded medic thing we used to have years ago, we asked for that, but there are of course shortages everywhere, even over there, we were fortunate to keep the same medic all tour, which did bring on that sense of belonging and knowing his spot in the order of things in all circumstances as you mentioned

 

[Armymedic]

I agree. However, in the MO the unit tend to exercise by itself, with minimal exposure to cbt arms, unless it's a bde level ex, where we are the primary med coverage, at least that's how it feels at my unit. In the instance of my unit, we rarely ever train on anything tactical.

Thats fine, cause it will a cold day before they let a Res F medic without previous experience and copious pretraining go out with a company over in Afghanistan. The best a Res F medic can hope is to be employed in the facilities in KAF.

 

[medaid]

well much thanks to all who've replied! All imput greatl appreicated.

 

[DartmouthDave]

Hello,

I feel that Res F Med-A are capable of filling various medic roles in A-Stan.  After all, Res F members have filled various other rolls in operational environments.

From my experience, I have had friends in the Res F who have deployed to BH, A-Stan, Cambodia, ect.... as Inf, Comms, and various other trades.  However, I have friend who are Res F Med-A who for various reason can not deploy, anywhere.

I know quite a few Res F Med-A with great knowledge and skills.  As long as they pass the run-up training like everybody and meet the required standard....why not? 

It seems like a potential resource being over looked.

Respectfully,

David

 

[boondocksaint]

I agree, especially since alot of Res medics are well employed on the civie side of the house gaining alot of hands on experience

 

[Armymedic]

Yes, I agree, a Res F medic who is:

employed on the civie side of the house gaining alot of hands on experience

and has completed copious amounts of military related training and experience, could work as a platoon/coy medic in Afghnistan. But that would be the exception rather than the rule.

The rest of the prepping for the sandbox is mute, as a med techs jobs in role 1, 2, and role 3 facilites are pretty much the same regardless where in the world the facility is set up. A good med tech (not medic) can fill those roles with the proper pretraining.

 

[herseyjh]

I remember similar argument way back when Res F combat arms soldiers were first deployed with Reg F units.  I think now it can be considered common place; however, this message has always seemed to be lost when applied to the medical branch.  I believe the the Res F medical branch could play an important role in supporting the CF's current operations.  There are a lot of experienced people sitting around medical companies who could be used and who are very frustrated right now.  I will be honest here, to me it seems like such a waste of resources, as isn't that one of the roles of the Res F?  To suppot the CF and it's operational needs?

 

[HItorMiss]

Sorry Herseyjh but that argument exist still about Res F cbt arms augmenting Reg cbt arms, many would not like to take them at all into the outside the wire units but relegate them if it is mandatory to take them with us into an operational theater to D&S troops only.

I'm not saying anything for or against, however I will say on the topic that my first answer still stands and that the training medic's received at the least was functional at best it was life saving ( I personally saw a lot of "At best" scenarios).

 

[DartmouthDave]

Hello,

I will date myself here.

Back in the day when Yugo was on the go the 1st tour was the RCR from Germany (no Res F).  Then 2RCR went and they brough Res F members to fill in rifeman and mortarman positions.  Same debate, some felt they would do better doing less 'challenging jobs'.  However, they were intergrated with the sections and did the same job their reg force counterparts did. As time went on Res F filled more gaps.  For example, section commanders and in one case my Company Commander was Res F.  Also, in some cases large percentages of rifle companies were Res F.

I know that many will say A-Stan isn't Bosnia!!  True. However, until recently it was the only 'troublesome' area that the CF has been that Res F were used extensively.  Therefore, it is our only point of comparison. So, I feel the Res F can play a role A-Stan weather medical, comms, or combat arms. 

Given time, more tour and more exposure to the Res F many will see them are peers as opposed to liabilities or necessary evils.  Also, given time, the CF will have to use the Res F to fill its needs in A-Stan.  Not because of political pressures to use the Res F but due to the fact that their isn't enough troops to go around.

Respectfully,
Dave 8)

 

[herseyjh]

From my perspective working with the combat arms in an augmented role has always seems to work.  That is my point of view and from my first hand experience.  Yes, you have to prove yourself, and there is always those who believe that different is always bad.  I am sure we both could point out cases where this has worked out and others where it has not.  I would like to think pre-deployment training would sort these issues out as for the most part I think it does as I know of both reg and reseve member who didn't make the 'cut.'  Numerous friends of mine have used this route to eventually go reg force and now some of them are SNCOs so the system must be working for the most part.

No on to the medical branch.  We can turn the argument around and put it like this: as a combat arms member you maintain your skills when you are training, or out in the field, then you get to put those skills to the test when you deploy.  When you are deployed you are working in a real world environment and it is not a simulation.  This is a very challenging environment and if we look back at history this is when the way we do things evolves as we see what works and what doesn't.

Whereas if you are in the medical branch and that is also your civilian field you are training every day in an operational environment.  CF Medical personal come over to this environment and train in ambulances, in the ER, ect...  I have seen them and met them, and helped them with their training.  Sometime their skills are rusty, sometimes they are bang on but they are there and I am there to get them to where they have to be.  Do you see where I am going with this?  I am not saying, sorry HitorMiss but the idea of taking Reg F NO and Med-As in my ER and in my ambulance is still causing issues and if I had the choice I wouldn't have them there.  No, it is get them up to speed so they can deploy.  

Remember there is always an other side of the fence.  Res F combat arms want the experience of an operational environment (to be deployed) and Ref F medical personal need to maintain their skills when they are not deployed by seeing patients and using their skills.

 

[HItorMiss]

Ok lets be clear I was neither stating a case for or against augmentees, I have an opinion of course but this is not a thread to get into Res vs Reg stuff.

I stand by my first post on medical training, More trauma less clinical.