"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[PJOsborne]

It was all somewhat comical and a little stupid. I couldn't really speak out against the idea since i was just a recruit OCdt at the time. There were only two candidates on the entire course who had TVs. The remainder, including the staff, had the 84 webbing, and they were having a difficult time deciding what to do with the two of us. Every time we had a class on "where things go", we had our hands up saying "but i have a TV, MCpl!"

While the rest of the course put their bug spray, foot powder, raingear, kfs and spare socks into their 84 butt pouch, we were told to shove them wherever they'd fit- eventually most of them went into the C9 pouch and what was left went into the kidney pouches. That left the raingear - the troops with 84 had to roll both items into the pouch. We were told, for the sake of uniformity, to choose one of the items and somehow find a way to carry it in the TV. We spent one night desperately trying different ways of Origami-ing the jacket top so it would fit (barely) into the map pouch, but we did get it done in the end. Granted, my left chest suddenly protruded an extra 2.5 inches, but we just had to suck it up because it's BMQ.

At least I got away without taking my kfs with me  :blotto:

 

[OldSolduer]

Here's the problem as I see it:

Us older members of the CF were trained to be "uniform", and it was like that for the 70's and a good part of the 80's. In the early 90's, younger troops were buying kit that was good....and if the CSM couldn't see it, it was OK. I've always been a bit of a "free thinker" and if the troops were more effective....then fine....and as long as it didn't look to outlandish.
I got 7 "corrective training days" for wearing non -issue boots in 94. They were far superior to the MkIIIs, but that didn't matter. I was hoping those days are over....apparently they are not!
Regarding the raingear in the TacVest map pocket...its not rocket science. That pocket was not meant for rain gear...
This discussion will never be solved.....there will always be the order "Only issue kit will be worn".
Personally, some people need to be marched to the RQMS and issued "common sense".

 

[Panzer Grenadier]

Personally, some people need to be marched to the RQMS and issued "common sense".

I'm afraid RQMS is out of common sense, as all of it has been shipped to troops outside the wire.

 

[PJOsborne]

Here's the problem as I see it:

Us older members of the CF were trained to be "uniform", and it was like that for the 70's and a good part of the 80's. In the early 90's, younger troops were buying kit that was good....and if the CSM couldn't see it, it was OK. I've always been a bit of a "free thinker" and if the troops were more effective....then fine....and as long as it didn't look to outlandish.
I got 7 "corrective training days" for wearing non -issue boots in 94. They were far superior to the MkIIIs, but that didn't matter. I was hoping those days are over....apparently they are not!
Regarding the raingear in the TacVest map pocket...its not rocket science. That pocket was not meant for rain gear...
This discussion will never be solved.....there will always be the order "Only issue kit will be worn".
Personally, some people need to be marched to the RQMS and issued "common sense".

That's more or less how I look at things at my unit. If troops want to use Stealth Jackets, UnderArmour, holsters, non-issue gloves, boots, etc, I don't have a problem with it so long as it looks presentable. It's not difficult to understand - some items of kit are deficient, and if a troop wants to make his lot in the field a little more comfortable, I'm all for it, so long as it's green (or tan, situation depending). When I go on exercises at the unit, I look like a walking kitshop. I wear non-issue gloves, boots, a Serpa Holster, magpuls, a vertical foregrip for my C7, shemagh and occasionally, when i know i can get away with it, I wear the excellent chest rig that Riggermade made for me. It's all either Cadpat or OD, and it's not too outlandish. To rip off a phrase from the US election campaign, I try to "be a force for change". :warstory:

 

[OldSolduer]

Patrick O!! Oh my a fellow free thinker!! There are more out there!!

Back in the 70's when I was a private, two older members were openly wondering why the troops needed so much water. You know the kind..."Back in my day, we were issued 1 canteen per man per day, and you didn't drink it until you were told to"
I'd read an article earlier that stated in the Israeli Army they encouraged their troops to drink loads of water, and if you run out we'll get more for you. I mentioned to the two old codgers this fact....you know what I was told?
"Shut the F*** up, you don't know what you're talking about"
We are still dealing with this type of mentality when it comes to kit.

Yes I wear a shemag too, much to the consternation of the Bde Comd. Oh well...what's he gonna do, send me to Afghanistan? I WISH!!

 

[PJOsborne]

I've run into the camel-mentality too. A CSM at the Infantry school was telling stories to my CAP course during a ruck march and he remarked at how nearly every officer in the course had camelbaks (in non issue carriers), and how 'back in the day' he survived on one canteen a day. I don't know how he did it, or how anyone would, given how hot and humid Gagetown is. At least the troops overseas don't have to deal with that.

I think there's still a standing Bde order that absolutely no non CF-issue kit may be worn, ever. I remember for a Bde Ex (Cougar Salvo 05), the Bde RSM sent out a memo electronically detailing in no uncertain terms that he would be actively scrutinizing the units and their soldiers and would be bringing troops up on charges if they wore anything non-issue. My platoon commander told me that he wasn't paying the order any mind. Sure enough, he went to the field wearing MEC fleece, Stealth Jacket, Polar-Fleece toque (basically just snivel kit) and most of the troops in my company had a shemagh and other smaller items on. The RSM found his way out to us and I saw him chatting to my Pl Comd, no doubt about the horrid state of his troops and how he wasn't setting a good example. Nothing came of it, though, and we went on our merry little way. I consider it an implied task to carry on the tradition!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There's an old adage "Any asshole can be uncomfortable"
and really, if you're tactical situation is taken care of, what you wear to complete the mission, is really if no consequence.

Here's the caveat:

Can the supply system replace your item should it become ineffective?
Is your issue item available , quickly within your UAB, in theatre (you're in a FOB, you're kit is in KAF)
Did you leave all your issue shyte in Canada, and deploy with all your go fast gear only?

 

[Bzzliteyr]

recceguy, that shouldn't what has to be done.  Everytime I had to trade vehicles on this tour, I had to transfer two rigs full of ammo over from one vehicle to another.  I was also warned about non issue helmet mods (which I have had for years) to which I replied that my "internals" were at home and that I only had 20 days left before I was home again anyhow.

I shouldn't have to have one "parade" TV and one "combat" rig, we should not have to fear the wrath of KAFasauruses and other dinosaurs that haven't got a grip yet!!

This is a sad state when an RSM can actually tell troops they aren't allowed to wear DLR approved trial gear.  That would be like him telling the crew of a new vehicle being developped that they cannot drive it over here!!  The silliest statement ever!!

Anyone who has taken a walk around KAF can easily speak for the "uniformity" of other nations and none of it makes it hard to recognize a Brit over an American over an Estonian, etc...

my 2 cents of the day...

 

[McG]

recceguy, that shouldn't what has to be done.  ...  I shouldn't have to have one "parade" TV and one "combat" rig, we should not have to fear the wrath of KAFasauruses and other dinosaurs that haven't got a grip yet!!

You did not bother to read recceguy's post did you?  He said nothing about parade kit and combat kit.  He said that, in the event your $500 chest rig gets destroyed, the supply system has no authority to replace it.  Therefore, you should have your issued stuff in country (even if it never leaves KAF).

 

[Farmboy]

recceguy, that shouldn't what has to be done.  ...  I shouldn't have to have one "parade" TV and one "combat" rig, we should not have to fear the wrath of KAFasauruses and other dinosaurs that haven't got a grip yet!!
You did not bother to read recceguy's post did you?  He said nothing about parade kit and combat kit.  He said that, in the event your $500 chest rig gets destroyed, the supply system has no authority to replace it.  Therefore, you should have your issued stuff in country (even if it never leaves KAF).

This is another silly argument. With this argument it's like saying you should have two rigs at all times, one as a back up.  What if the issue rig your wearing gets destroyed in the middle of nowhere? Can it be replaced?  Are there extra TV's at the FOB in case an issue one gets destroyed.

If the problem is that the QM won't give you a vest if your aftermarket one is destroyed because you still have an issue one, but it's at home, then that's just stupid red tape.

If your $500 chest rig gets destroyed then I'm sure you have other things to worry about. I know of one TAG chest rig that survived an IED and to my knowledge was still usable.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Farmboy,

Your in the business of selling gear, ergo,  your POV can be looked at as somewhat jaundiced. After all, the more aftermarket stuff guys get, especially from you, the better you make out, right?  I simply played devil's advocate and asked some questions, no need to get defensive.

 

[McG]

and the fact is that the QM will provide emergency replacement to soldiers with nothing to carry their kit. However, the question is going to be asked: why is already issued operational clothing sitting under the bed in Canada when you need it here now?

... there is a tendency for these occurrences to increase the levels of "only wear issue kit" being passed from on high.

 

[geo]

From a personal point of view, if your expensive store bought rig gets destroyed in ops, there is no reason in the world why the Supply system should not replace it with a standard CF issue rig..... no reason for it.... cause the official CF one woulda been destroyed anyway.

 

[Farmboy]

Your in the business of selling gear, ergo,  your POV can be looked at as somewhat jaundiced. After all, the more aftermarket stuff guys get, especially from you, the better you make out, right?  I simply played devil's advocate and asked some questions, no need to get defensive.

Yes, if guys buy more from me, the better I do make out.  If that was the reason for my point of view I wouldn't be so passionate about it and I would be selling something else, something everyone would buy, not just a small group, that way I'd be making alot more money.

I get cranky about it cause I have good friends that I care about.  I want them to have the best equipment there is so they can do their job more effectively and bring themselves home saftely.

When guys get head injuries because they have the plain issue helmet instead of the BLSS or Skydex system it pisses me off big time.

If the chain of command wanted eveyones nose hairs trimmed a certian way in garrison so be it, but when our guys are in combat and orders like this come down it puts my friends and other lives in danger.

 

[daftandbarmy]

This is another silly argument. With this argument it's like saying you should have two rigs at all times, one as a back up.  What if the issue rig your wearing gets destroyed in the middle of nowhere? Can it be replaced?  Are there extra TV's at the FOB in case an issue one gets destroyed.

I agree.

The army should give you a new one if required. It is ridiculous, in a war zone, to expect the soldier to hand in their destryed/US kit (officially issued or not) in return for a new one. Anyone in the chain of command who expects this to happen should be handed their gold watch and shuffled off to the Regimental Association. Unfortunately, again, this is one of those annoying parts of the steep learning cureve we're going through to adjust from a peacekeeping to a warfighting army...

 

[armyvern]

From a personal point of view, if your expensive store bought rig gets destroyed in ops, there is no reason in the world why the Supply system should not replace it with a standard CF issue rig..... no reason for it.... cause the official CF one woulda been destroyed anyway.

It's a matter of Treasury Board. A very legal fucking reason too I'd say.  :

Come one people ... quit blaming the fucking supply system. TB says your're entitled to ONE, you have it, you want another?? Then the first ONE needs to be written off. You're asking me to break the law and perform write-off of your original YOU didn't bring?? Nice. (And YES ... your clothing docs DO get audited by auditor general).

You don't take your issued kit overseas ... that's up to you. You are well aware that you need to take your issued gear with you. Don't bitch about it. That's YOUR choice to make.

Us mere fucking supply techs (QMs ... RQs etc) are limitied by Treasury Board Regulations (that's LAW -- LAW enacted by YOUR government which mandates what we can and can not do/issue you).

Here's the kicker: You are entitled to a TV by the scale of entitlement ... YOU are entitled to 1 each. Period. That's the Scale -- ie that's the entitlement you have been given by your EGS' ...IAW Treasury Board Regualtions.

It's NOT supply techs being assholes ... it's not RQs not using common sense ... YOU have the 1 you are entitled to, yet YOU chose to leave it at home and it somehow becomes our fault? You people fucking kill me.

You want another TV on top of the one your entitled to and already have IAW the LAW? (<-- note: I don't make the LAW & I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the way it is, and you are aware of it before deploying when you are told to bring your issued kit anyways). Then I would give you one ... but you'd be submitting the MLR for cost recovery of the original one (you'd be certifying that YOU lost/destroyed your original issued one) so that I can re-issue you another, because that's the only way that I can legally do that.

You submitting & signing your name on an MLR certifying that you lost/damaged/destroyed your original and it's legalities regarding filing fraudulant official paperwork is on you. So -- I should break the law and give you another one?? Or should that be your problem ... after all you are the one who chose to leave you issued kit at home when told to bring it into theatre.

People just don't tell you these things to fuck you around --- although some of you seem convinced that is the very reason people like me exist. One day, you can all be responsible for your own actions ... instead of blaming us folks for being assholes/idiots when we aren't the ones sitting in your house choosing to omit kit from the rucksacks getting packed to deploy. Your choice = YOUR problem.

 

[McG]

I agree.

The army should give you a new one if required. It is ridiculous, ....

As was already pointed out, the Army will do this.  Thank you for not reading.

However, to do this some supply NCO is breaking some rules ... because, why is already issued kit (which is apparently needed if it is being demanded for a re-issue) sitting in owner's home in Canada?

 

[McG]

Keep in mind, this is not saying "don't bring your gucci kit" it is saying "do bring your issue kit."

 

[KevinB]

It's a matter of Treasury Board. A very legal fucking reason too I'd say.  :

Come one people ... quit blaming the fucking supply system. TB says your're entitled to ONE, you have it, you want another?? Then the first ONE needs to be written off. You're asking me to break the law and perform write-off of your original YOU didn't bring?? Nice. (And YES ... your clothing docs DO get audited by auditor general).

You don't take your issued kit overseas ... that's up to you. You are well aware that you need to take your issued gear with you. Don't bitch about it. That's YOUR choice to make.

Us mere fucking supply techs (QMs ... RQs etc) are limitied by Treasury Board Regulations (that's LAW -- LAW enacted by YOUR government which mandates what we can and can not do/issue you).

Here's the kicker: You are entitled to a TV by the scale of entitlement ... YOU are entitled to 1 each. Period. That's the Scale -- ie that's the entitlement you have been given by your EGS' ...IAW Treasury Board Regualtions.

It's NOT supply techs being assholes ... it's not RQs not using common sense ... YOU have the 1 you are entitled to, yet YOU chose to leave it at home and it somehow becomes our fault? You people fucking kill me.

You want another TV on top of the one your entitled to and already have IAW the LAW? (<-- note: I don't make the LAW & I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the way it is, and you are aware of it before deploying when you are told to bring your issued kit anyways). Then I would give you one ... but you'd be submitting the MLR for cost recovery of the original one (you'd be certifying that YOU lost/destroyed your original issued one) so that I can re-issue you another, because that's the only way that I can legally do that.

You submitting & signing your name on an MLR certifying that you lost/damaged/destroyed your original and it's legalities regarding filing fraudulant official paperwork is on you. So -- I should break the law and give you another one?? Or should that be your problem ... after all you are the one who chose to leave you issued kit at home when told to bring it into theatre.

People just don't tell you these things to fuck you around --- although some of you seem convinced that is the very reason people like me exist. One day, you can all be responsible for your own actions ... instead of blaming us folks for being assholes/idiots when we aren't the ones sitting in your house choosing to omit kit from the rucksacks getting packed to deploy. Your choice = YOUR problem.

Sorry Vern all I got here was Blah Blah Blah

What about boots that where personal due to chit etc?
  I was not entitled to MkIII's, nor the issue Desert Boots due to my Chit -- I dont thinkt he supply system decided to bring extra Danner Desert Boots for me to theatre --- as such I would have been given a pair of boots I was not entitled to if my others where destroyed.

  Temp Issue -- I've had stuff go missing on a plane and been issued a SECOND (OMG dont let the treasury board know that common sence broke out) while waiting for my kit to marry uip with me.
  It is in fact common sence to issue a temp set to a troop who's gear was destroyed --

because in fact -- it will take longer for the kit to be written off (a few TF1-06 pers here can explain their stories of kit they still did not have for their JNCO/ISCC whatever its called now - due to it being destoryed in Afghan - and the system had not yet replaced it 8+ months after) than it would take the troop to hop on the net to phone Darren or whomever to get a new vest mailed out to them - and have it in hand in Afghan.

Frankly why one would want to bring a POS vest into theatre that they did not train with and had different muscle memory?  So they could have an extra in case they got blown up?  Frankly I dont know who many here have been in firefights or IED's - but in my experience when pers kit and pers weapons get holes in them the enduser tends not to have faired all the best either. 


Also given the UAB weight issues -- why bring a 7lbs waste of space?


Just my 200 iraqi dinar

 

[Teeps74]

I know I am a new guy here... But um, perhaps bring this conversation back down to a friendly with beers type thing? Vern is absolutly right, supply techs are not the ones at issue here, and suggesting someone go against the rules/laws in place is of questionable merit. I am just a dumb 00010 type guy, but I do know that my friends in the supply world have always taken care of me when they could, and without qualifiers.

It is not unreasonable for one to suggest bringing your issue Tac Vest on top of your commercial rig, as turn around time for a replacement commercial rig could be up to a couple of weeks (assuming you find a way to get it sent priority, faster if you can send it by way of DHL or FEDEX), and Vern laid out the legalities of issuing a replacement without paper work/or the damaged kit.

I ain't a fan of several of our issued items. However, it is not the fault of supply techs that the known issues exsist. We all work within the framework we are given, we accept risks when we step out of our lanes (ie wearing non-issued kit). We can not demand that others share our risks. It is our duty to protect ourselves, by bringing our issued kit with us, in event that we find ourselves needing a replacement (God forbid).