The Sleep Superthread- Apnea/ Disorders/ etc.

[orange.paint]

I was thoroughly surprised by this website today.Usually a quick use of the helpful search feature answers your question or guides you to it anyway.
After searching:sleep deprivation,lack of sleep,rules for sleep in field and nothing really answers my question of:

What are the rules for sleep deprivation during TRAINING in Canada?(I.E time up vs time down)

Having said this:

This isn't just some soldier bitching.
Yes I know everyone has a story about how long they stayed awake on RV 33 etc.
And no I'm not trying to sound cocky,I just sometimes come off that way. ;D



I remember a while back hearing for every thirty six hours you are required 4 hours undisturbed sleep here in Canada.While on my mod six we were taught troops could remain functional on 1 hour a day for nine days (58%).I haven't been to my computer at work in quite some time due to course and was wondering if anyone knew for sure out there.

thanks in advance

edit due to spelling

 

[Armymedic]

I remember a while back hearing for every thirty six hours you are required 4 hours undisturbed sleep here in Canada.While on my mod six we were taught troops could remain functional on 1 hour a day for nine days (58%).I haven't been to my computer at work in quite some time due to course and was wondering if anyone knew for sure out there.

BS. 1 hr will incapacitate you in about 3 days. You need min of 4 hrs of sleep to maintain 75% effectiveness for up to 5 days. Anything less means that you will become ineffective as a soldier.

Further...Causing you to be sleep deprived is inhibiting your abilities to work to your best capability, and hence putting you and all around you, at risk. It is MHO that leaders should only induce sleep deprivation for a specific training purpose (such as leadership training) and not do it as a rule. In fact, sleep time (no less then 6 hours uniterupted a night) should be enforced for all training not included above, and for all operations. If you want to get your people killed, make them sleep deprived.

 

[orange.paint]

I'm not saying this as a leader,I'm just asking the general question that according to training doctrine during TRAINING what the rules are.I understand fully that it wouldn't happen on OP'S if it didn't have to.

Armymedic,this question is being posed as a question for training in Canada.Not for operations etc.I did 3 days strait a while back with under 3 hours sleep over those 3 days, and was wondering the policy in the CF on courses.We were given 2 hours on the end of the second day,then we all caught catnaps during MLVW drives to objectives when the driver wasn't driving like a idiot.And yes it was a PLQ .It was good though as we found everything absolutely hilarious!Good memories for life!

just wondering if anyone close to the din or anyone who knows could post an answer to:

HRS SLEEP VS HR WORK ON COURSES IN CANADA

armymedic:I looked for where I written the 1 hr/9days but couldnt find it.I dont disagree with you at all on it though,it does sound rather (for lack of a better word) "retarded".Ill see if i can find the po/eo number later this week to confirm.But alas I may be wrong.

thanks again in advance.

 

[Armymedic]

Oh sorry, my bad,
I failed to put in that there is no guidelines for training vs sleep for regular tng in the CF. And there should be, as my rant suggests.

 

[Hoover]

Did a 5 day ex with about 4 hours of sleep, went and got pissed at the first chance after end ex drills.

 

[paracowboy]

to the best of my knowledge, there are no Hard and Fast guidelines/rules on Sleep or lack of same, except for the requirement for drivers to get 8 solid prior to driving.

Ask GO!!! how much he and his boys got on the last Ex.

 

[1feral1]

Recently on ex in southern Victoria, I logged about 9hrs sleep in the first 3 days. This was due to RAEME taskings (fixing LAVS broken in the fd - late nights in the cold), plus mixing that in with CP duties, etc. Mind you there were nights we gonked out for 9hrs straight too.

I've got no complaints, just part of the job.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[orange.paint]

Nope for some sick reason I love my job too Wesley!

Armymedic,did you ever see a canforgen maybe on it?I remember somewhere in LFAA hearing about it being standard that you could keep troops awake for 36 hrs then make them forced rest for 4 hours and continue.Maybe its a base order?

Yep I remember 8 hours sleep for drivers on ex in pet myself,think you were with us then armymedic.I also remember it switching to 6 hours for the last few ex's I did in beautiful petawawa.

Maybe its an urban myth....sort of like forced rest in recce patrol orders!

cheers to anyone else who can help us out!

 

[GO!!!]

Maybe its an urban myth....sort of like forced rest in recce patrol orders!

+1 to that.

I've never read anything to indicate that rest was mandatory before anything but driving.

My experiences support this, as I've done night live fires on four hours of sleep in 48 and nearly everything else infanteers do on even less.

Besides, it would not make a lick of difference even if there was a rule;

Lt.: "Gentleman, orders. C Coy will conduct a full kit, night, double door mass descent on DZ Saville Farm at 0430..."

GO: "Negative sir. This would be in direct violation of CFAO 417.54 subsection 3, 'requirement for rest' you'll just have to wait until after lunch."

Can you see that happening? 

 

[Canadian Sig]

CFSCE in Kingston makes you keep a "sleep log" for all your Det members and the rules they use are 4 hours uninteruppted and 2 more hours however you can. Good luck cause it never happens and everyone just lies on the logs anyway.

 

[Naralis]

In CI SQFT, the rule during garrison for training is 6 hours of sleep, minimum.

 

[Hot Lips]

CFSCE in Kingston makes you keep a "sleep log" for all your Det members and the rules they use are 4 hours uninteruppted and 2 more hours however you can. Good luck cause it never happens and everyone just lies on the logs anyway.

  I thought lying wasn't on...?  And how can you effect change (not that this is going to happen...I worked nights in Emerg so I somewhat understand) if you misrepresent things?
I am confused...the motto throughout most of these threads is NEVER lie  ???

HL

 

[paracowboy]

I am confused...the motto throughout most of these threads is NEVER lie 

not everyone follows it. That's why I harp on it constantly. Some fucking pussies would rather taste scrotum and go along to get along, then do the right fucking thing, stand up for their troops and make a positive change!

I've been recognized both positively and negatively for my ever-flapping mouth and unwillingness to see troops get screwed over, if I can make any sort of change. It ain't easy, and it can get you in a whole lot of trouble, but THAT IS YOUR GODDAMN JOB! D9 wishes I could shut up once in a while, but if I did, I wouldn't be the man she fell for (sucker!)

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Part of it is just plain following orders or doing what has to be done.  In the OP Base, I would usually be short the man if I had a 5 man (or 4 man in alot of cases) patrol, letting Jnr go with the 3 man night op (0r 2 man).  Not alot of sleep.  Oh well.  C'est la vie.  When we did have a full ptl, it was like a vacation or something.  sleep?  in the screen?  WOW.

As far as the "orders" go, we were ordered to give the entire course 6 hours sleep a night MINIMUM while on the def. pos in 2001 (QL3 Armd course FTX).  I had never heard of it before, but...the CO said so.  We flipped for it, I lost (3 rings beat 3 chevron's every time).

I know our BTS for Def Ops was (used to be?) 72 hours.  After 3 days of 4 on, 2 off you get alittle thick, cause you never really get the 2 hours. 

CLC in '93, you got as much sleep as you made time for yourself.  2 hours was normal (that was BEFORE the field portion). 

Never seen a CANFORGEN or anything to that affect on the issue though...just specific direction for troops in trng.  I have witnessed the results of their NOT being any direction from the CoC or "school policy" (ARTS in Gagetown) where the troops have been screwed for no good "effective trng" reasons.  Just cause someone could make them stay awake.  Making people stay up IF they could sleep is as stupid as making people sleep in the rain when they have bivy bags in their valise.

 

[Hot Lips]

not everyone follows it. That's why I harp on it constantly. Some fucking pussies would rather taste scrotum and go along to get along, then do the right fucking thing, stand up for their troops and make a positive change!

I've been recognized both positively and negatively for my ever-flapping mouth and unwillingness to see troops get screwed over, if I can make any sort of change. It ain't easy, and it can get you in a whole lot of trouble, but THAT IS YOUR GODDAMN JOB! D9 wishes I could shut up once in a while, but if I did, I wouldn't be the man she fell for (sucker!)

See now that's what I like to here...someone with a set of balls not afraid to stand up for what's right...stay handy Paracowboy...I am sure I will need lots of advice as a Jr Officer

HL

 

[paracowboy]

keep in mind that loudmouths like me are NOT necessarily right, all the time. We may not have all the facts. We might just be stupid or cranky that day. You don't have to listen, but it never hurts to hear 'em out.

You will still have your orders, and you will still have to make the call.
My mission.
My men.
Myself.

Mission first, men always.

Sometimes you have no choice but to put the rod to the troops, in order to carry out the mission successfully. And jerks like me might not realize your aim.

 

[exsemjingo]

Didn't you see that Ren and Stimpy Episode?  It was one of many where they were in Basic Training until Ren finally freaks out.
"No bed...no sleep... no bed... no sleep... WA HA HA!!"

The purpose of training is to simulate combat, and in combat there may well be no reprive of noise and disturbances for 3, 5 days, or maybe ever!

Having worked double shifts overnight to make ends meet, I can tell you that even after 36 hours awake strait, you can still do most anything that you might otherwise be able to do.  You really, really start to focus on the task at hand and completely forget about everything else.  As you loose effectiveness, you also gain efficiency.
But it is really uncomfortable.  Your eyes start to flicker and you get all tingly as you feel your blood sugar change.
Don't worry about it.  They'll push you till you think you'll die, but then you won't.  Just like Ren.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Bottom line is...you get the troops to ground when and if you can.

AND...the troops make sure they do what they can for their Tp Ldr/Tp WO or whoever is "in the breech".  While the troops are doing Harbour Routine and gettin' grits down-range...those folks are busy. 

TEAM

Even the new 2Lt's that were my Troopie, who was on the go lots...got back to the Tp lines...had a fart sack already rolled out for them. 

TEAM.

Even the Ptl Cmdrs/Tp WO/Tp Ldr I worked for that aren't on my Christmas Card list, we still did what we could to get them an extra 15 in the fart sack.  And they did it for us. 

Mud

 

[aesop081]

Well, i dont remember seeing any written rules about sleep / "time up, time down" when i was in the army, but for aicrews, the rules are hard and fast.  We have rules for whats called "crew rest" which is the minimum time i have to be given off between flights and "crew day" which is the most number of hours i can be at work if my day involves flying.

 

[Standards]

Similar to what many others have said, I have not seen any official CF guidelines for sleep during training.

However, a good DND reference is "Fatigue, Sleep Loss and Operational Performance - Operational Effectiveness Guide 98-1".  This guide was produced by two researchers at NDHQ and a copy was provided with a course I took.  If you are interested send me a PM.

D