The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[jmt18325]

That was the one.

 

[MarkOttawa]

On the other hand the Stringbag with radar for ASW--note U-boats sunk at end at link:
http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/swordfish.htm

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Rifleman62]

Plus if you do it right you could receive the VC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swordfish

In February 1942, the shortcomings of the Swordfish were starkly demonstrated during a German naval fleet movement known as the Channel Dash. Six Swordfish led by Lieutenant Commander Eugene Esmonde sortied from Manston to intercept the battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as they traversed the English Channel towards Germany.[20] When the Swordfish formation arrived and commenced an initial attack run coming astern of the ships, the Swordfish were intercepted by roughly 15 Messerschmitt Bf 109 monoplane fighter aircraft; the aerial battle was extremely one-sided, quickly resulting in the loss of all Swordfish while no damage was achieved upon the ships themselves.[20] The lack of fighter cover was a contributing factor for the heavy losses experienced; only ten of eighty-four promised fighters were available. Thirteen of the eighteen Swordfish crew involved were killed; Esmonde, who had previously led an attack on Bismarck, was awarded the Victoria Cross posthumously

 

[MarkOttawa]

Going very off topic but compare with the equally suicidal results of the USN Douglas Devastator (TBD) torpedo bombers (monoplane) at Midway:

The Unknown Battle of Midway: The Destruction of the American Torpedo Squadrons
https://www.amazon.ca/Battle-Midway-Destruction-American-Squadrons/dp/030010989X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1492736134&sr=1-10

More on the aircraft:
http://www.aviation-history.com/douglas/tbd.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[AlexanderM]

I presume this is the one you were talking about.

http://saab.com/globalassets/publications-pdfs/support-and-services/mpa/swordfish_mpa_datasheet_may-2017_web.pdf

Gotta think the Liberals would like this being based on the Global 6000.

 

[jmt18325]

That was why I said it.  The Sea Herc is an outside possibility if Boeing really is blacklisted.

 

[Kirkhill]

The more I look at that Swordfish (the Saab-Bombardier effort) I find I can't stop wondering if they couldn't have hung some more stuff from it.

There is still some clean wing surface, and I think a dorsal turret would add something to the overall impression....

 

[AlexanderM]

The more I look at that Swordfish (the Saab-Bombardier effort) I find I can't stop wondering if they couldn't have hung some more stuff from it.

The Global 7000 and 8000 are in development and would be larger. Would mean more range and likely more room.

 

[jmt18325]

The Global 7000 and 8000 are in development and would be larger. Would mean more range and likely more room.

The 7000 has 12 feet in length on the 6000.  The 8000 is only about 3 feet longer than the 6000.  The 7000 may be the best choice for a platform.  Of course, much of the design work has already been done using the 6000.

 

[Kirkhill]

Back on topic

...À quand la décision? Pas avant le début de la prochaine décennie, nous a dit Marc Garneau, le ministre fédéral des Transports, qui siège au comité de sélection du remplaçant du CF-18. Donc, après les prochaines élections fédérales.....

So,  this thread has got another three years to run....

And the odds of Rafale?

Peu probable

http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1040761/redorer-limage-du-f-35-au-bourget

Radio Canada via DoDBuzz via RealClearDefense

https://www.dodbuzz.com/2017/06/21/lockheed-exec-confident-canada-will-pick-f-35-block-buy-eyed/

I don't think much of Radio Canada or CBC on their technical reporting ..... but I tend not to bet against their political reports.  Especially when they are parroting the government.

 

[MarkOttawa]

FUBAR, en anglais--F-35A in "interim" mix now?:

Liberals limiting options for stopgap fighter jet deal
Minister hopes trade dispute resolved quickly so 'we can get back to business' on Super Hornet purchase

Talks with the Pentagon about filling the Canadian air force's short-term need for jet fighters remain on track, said Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan.

Those negotiations for a so-called "interim capability" continue despite the Liberal government making a very public display at the Paris Air Show this week of snubbing Boeing executives.

The U.S. aerospace giant's commercial trade complaint against Montreal-based Bombardier has thrown the military contract into limbo.

Boeing wants trade regulators in Washington to investigate subsidies for Bombardier's CSeries aircraft, claiming they allow the Canadian company to export planes at well below cost.

The Liberals had intended to purchase 18 Super Hornet fighters — at a potential total program cost of between $5 billion and $7 billion — from Boeing. The deal was supposed to be a stopgap until the government can finalize the purchase of 88 permanent replacements for the aging CF-18 fleet.

    More doubt over Super Hornet sale as Liberals break contact with Boeing
    Sajjan blasts Boeing over trade spat with Bombardier
    Boeing says complaint aims to prevent larger CSeries

After Boeing filed the trade complaint earlier this year, the government broke off contact with the U.S. company and said it was reviewing the "interim" fighter deal. It heightened the rhetoric last month, saying the aircraft maker was no longer the "trusted partner" it had been.

Sajjan said that, regardless of the trade dispute, the urgent requirement for fighters has not gone away and must be filled somehow.

"We're still continuing our discussions with the U.S. government, making sure that we fill this capability gap," Sajjan said.
Other options?

If Boeing has been frozen out, what is the Liberal government talking about with the Pentagon?

Sajjan said there are "other options," but refused to explain what they might be.

There are limited choices for a government-to-government purchase with the U.S. if the Super Hornet has been excluded.

During a recent trip to Singapore, Sajjan met with the CEO of Lockheed Martin, which is eager to sell Canada its advanced, but often maligned, F-35 — a plane the Liberals promised not to buy during the last election.

A defence industry source with knowledge of the file said Lockheed Martin has sent a letter to the Liberal government, expressing interest in providing its jets as the "interim solution [emphasis added]."..
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sajjan-super-hornets-pentagon-1.4171638

With Super Hornet production for USN looking pretty assured for next few years (plus Kuwait order) our gov't has little leverage to get Boeing to cave in on Bombardier--18 fighters not that much money compared to trying effectively to kill CSeries:

Navy’s Planned 80 Super Hornet Buy Could Grow After New Pentagon Strategy Review
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/15/navys-planned-80-super-hornet-order-grow-strategy-review-washington-d-c-total-80-super-hornets-navy-set-buy-next-five-years-grow-based

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

Try before you buy?  Rent-to-own?  FUBAR indeed.

 

[a_majoor]

Back in the real world, it looks like Lockheed-Martin has the capacity to build F-35s at a higher rate. With sufficient funding, it may be possible to get an order in with the Marines and "split the difference" by treating it as one big production run and getting economies of scale for anyone ordering the F-35B model. I'm not clear if the F-35A assembly lines have room like this, but once again, a consortium of buyers could potentially get together, demand a single long "run" and reap some economies of scale for themselves as well.

Indeed, the only buyer who won "not" benefit from this is the IDF, who's model is evidently significantly different from the standard F-35A.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2017/6/21/marine-corps-official-service-needs-f-35s-faster

Marine Corps Wants F-35Bs Delivered Faster
6/21/2017
By Yasmin Tadjdeh

PARIS — The Marine Corps, which plans to purchase hundreds of F-35 joint strike fighters, wants them to be delivered quicker, the service's deputy commandant for aviation said June 20 at the Paris Air Show.

“We could use airplanes faster,” said Lt. Gen. Jon M. Davis, who will be retiring in a few weeks. “We’re flying some of the oldest tactical aircraft — the strike fighters — in the naval inventory.”

The Marine Corps plans to purchase 420 F-35s, of which 353 will be the F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) variant and 67 F-35 carrier variants, he said during a briefing at the show, which is being held at Le Bourget Airport. These will replace aging aircraft such as the F/A-18 Hornet and AV-8B II Harrier.

Both systems are reaching the end of their service lives, he said. The average age of the Hornet is 26 years, he added.

In a perfect world Lockheed Martin would produce 37 F-35Bs per year, Davis said. However, budgetary issues make that unlikely even though the company has said it could support such a number.

“Bottom line, with the budgets the way … [they are] right now, we can’t recapitalize everything. I’m recapitalizing F-35s, CH-53Ks, C-130s, H-1s, V-22s all at the same time,” he said.

The procurement of the V-22 Osprey is winding down, which will assist with the F-35 ramp-up, he said. Additional funding from Congress would help boost the F-35 numbers. “We would be very appreciative of anything we can get … from our elected leadership,” he added.

Next year, the Marine Corps will have the money to purchase 20 F-35Bs, he said. While the aircraft will be in high demand, 420 platforms are enough to meet the service’s requirements, he said. “It has been 420 for some time, and we intend to stay at 420 F-35s,” he added.

The F-35 will provide a marked increased in capability for the Marine Corps, Davis noted.

“Operationally, the F-35 is giving us tremendous capability in every realm — air-to-air, air-to-ground strike. ... It is the most capable airplane that we’ve ever fielded," he said.

“We’re just scratching the surface of what we can do with this airplane,” he added. “It gives us that ability to land on a small ship, land on a forward operating base [and] basically extend the reach, depth and breadth and agility of the Marine Air-Ground Task Force.”

So far, the Marine Corps has stood up two F-35B squadrons — VMFA-121 and VMFA-211. Both will be deployed alongside Marine expeditionary units within a year, he said. “They are ready for worldwide global tasking for contingency operations now — and if need be — ready to go deploy and fight,” he said.

The next five squadrons will be converted F-18 squadrons, with four becoming F-35B squadrons and one being an F-35C, the Navy's carrier variant, he added.

The F-35B is also an important platform for the United Kingdom, which is a joint strike fighter program partner nation, said Rear Adm. Keith Blount, assistant chief of naval staff for aviation, amphibious capability and carriers for the Royal Navy.

The fighter will be flown off the nation’s new aircraft carriers, the HMS Queen Elizabeth and the HMS Prince of Wales, he said. The Queen Elizabeth could be deployed this month, with the Prince of Wales following in 18 months.

“We believe the QE to be a true fifth-gen carrier built from the keel up to accommodate fifth-gen fighter aircraft, and we’re very proud to say that the F-35B will be the aircraft of choice,” he said.

The STOVL variant is ideal for the types of missions the nation flies, he added.

“The opportunities and potential of this airframe are almost endless. So we see ourselves right at the very forefront of jet aircraft and carrier strike capability by blending the Queen Elizabeth-class with the F-35,” he said.

 

[MarkOttawa]

As for IDF:

Israeli F-35s to be declared operational in December

The Israel Air Force (IAF) will declare its Lockheed Martin F-35A jets fully operational in December, a military source has told Jane's.

The operational status will apply to the five F-35s already delivered to the IAF as well as all future jets on their arrival. Israel has ordered 50 jets to equip two full squadrons, with final deliveries expected in 2022.
http://www.janes.com/article/71646/israeli-f-35s-to-be-declared-operational-in-december#.WUwKucSph3k.twitter

Mark
Ottawa

 

[a_majoor]

I presume this is the one you were talking about.

http://saab.com/globalassets/publications-pdfs/support-and-services/mpa/swordfish_mpa_datasheet_may-2017_web.pdf

I'd think more highly of solutions like that if they paid attention to the aerodynamics. Everything should be fitted in a "canoe" under the fuselage, and weapons should be fitted in something like the pod demonstrated by the Advanced Super Hornet concept. This should assist in issues like range and manoeuvrability, not to mention making the aircraft marginally more stealthy than one with all kinds of "stuff" hanging off it.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

 

[AlexanderM]

After watching video of the demonstration of the Rafale at the Paris Air Show, have to say, does it ever look quick and agile, even in comparision with the F-35 demonstration. I now fully expect we will purchase the F-35 and it will be able to fire before it's seen, especially once the meteor missile is available, but I still like the Rafale.

 

[McG]

I'd think more highly of solutions like that if they paid attention to the aerodynamics. Everything should be fitted in a "canoe" under the fuselage, and weapons should be fitted in something like the pod demonstrated by the Advanced Super Hornet concept. This should assist in issues like range and manoeuvrability, not to mention making the aircraft marginally more stealthy than one with all kinds of "stuff" hanging off it.

Yeah, the company only employs aerospace engineers to design these things.  Those guys know nothing about aerodynamics.

 

[Kirkhill]

Back to the trace...

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/german-officials-meet-with-lockheed-to-talk-f-35-at-paris-air-show

German officials meet with Lockheed to talk F-35 at Paris Air Show
By: Valerie Insinna, June 23, 2017

LE BOURGET, France — During the Paris Air Show this week, German government officials met with Lockheed Martin to talk about the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, a source connected to the program told Defense News.

It is not uncommon for potential customers — including Germany — to engage with the defense industry on a number of platforms or technologies, nor does the meeting indicate a significant step forward in the process of selling the F-35 to Germany, the source said.

However, the air show marked the first time the German government and Lockheed had ever discussed the F-35 specifically, albeit in an unclassified setting, he said.

In May, Germany sent a written request to the U.S. military for a classified briefing on the F-35, Reuters reported that month. No program of record has been approved by the German government, which intends to evaluate other fighter jets on the market to replace its fleet of fourth-generation Panavia Tornadoes. However, the apparent interest in the F-35 was somewhat surprising, given Germany’s participation in the Eurofighter Typhoon program built with the United Kingdom, Italy and Spain.

The U.S. Defense Department has agreed to support Germany’s request for a briefing, said F-35 Joint Program Office spokesman Joe DellaVedova, who was not aware whether the discussion would include classified data. Preparations for a meeting are moving forward, but a date has not yet been set.

In an interview with Defense News at the Paris Air Show, Orlando Carvalho, head of Lockheed’s aeronautics business, said the company is ready to support the U.S. government if it decides to press on with a classified briefing to Germany.

“We’ve seen the interest that the German Air Force has, but right now that’s in government-to-government channels in terms of their interest in getting a briefing,” he said. “As we always do, we’ll provide support to our government, to the JPO, if in fact they go forward with providing a briefing to Germany, but none of that has been worked out yet in terms of how that’s going to be done.”

If a classified briefing is authorized, Carvalho said the company hopes to hold more in-depth talks about the fifth-generation capabilities that differentiate the F-35 from fourth-generation fighter jets.

“It’s not just about the signature, it’s about the avionics capability, the mission-system capability, the surveillance capability, ISR, etc. It’s about the ability to communicate on board [and] off board with other platforms,” he said.

Lockheed has thus far secured orders from 11 countries for the F-35. Finland and Belgium are also potential European sales opportunities for the aircraft, Lockheed's F-35 program manager, Jeff Babione, said in a Monday briefing.

Buy American - boost NATO - decrease trade surplus

Where does that leave our government?

Finland is an independent.  But Belgium, with Luxembourg, is a charter supporter of, if not the key link in, the Franco-German pact.

 

[MarkOttawa]

US House closer to giving USN quite a few more new Super Hornets for FY 2018 (starts Oct. 1 2017, note also F-35 increase across services):

HASC Would Add 5 Ships, $3 Billion in Aircraft Procurement to Navy’s 2018 Plans
...
The bill would also authorize the Navy to buy 22 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, compared to the Navy’s request for 14...For the Defense Department as a whole, the bill authorizes 87 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, compared to the request for 70 across the Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force...

The House Appropriations defense subcommittee also released its 2018 bill this week and had many plus-ups for the Navy too, including...funding for 24 Super Hornets...
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/26/hasc-would-add-5-ships-3-billion-in-aircraft-procurement-to-navys-2018-plans

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I think this whole thing is going from "Anything but the F-35" to "Anything but the Super Hornet." 

Very interested to see how this all plays out....

The pessimist in me is expecting that after the much celebrated "interim buy", the Liberals will recognize the short-term optics advantage of doing a single bid for the larger fleet, and defer the spend so their budget deficit/surplus situation looks better over the next few years.