The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[PPCLI Guy]

You cannot have an open and transparent competition to replace the CF-18 if you automatically exclude certain aircraft because you don't like them politically. That's the exact opposite of an open and transparent competition.

Nor is it open and fair if the SOR is written (by fighter pilots) so that only the F35 will win the bid.

 

[Altair]

It's still the same old Liberal Party, still the same old culture.

A fresh figurehead merely conceals those pulling the strings beneath - and they've not changed.

Truthiness.

 

[jmt18325]

It's still the same old Liberal Party, still the same old culture.

A fresh figurehead merely conceals those pulling the strings beneath - and they've not changed.

I guess I'm silly in that I need evidence first.

 

[Altair]

I guess I'm silly in that I need evidence first.

Truthiness requires no such evidence.

Get on board man.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I guess I'm silly in that I need evidence first.

Let's pretend we are neighbors;  I own a big, but somewhat older German Sheppard.  One day it bites you, or one of your kids quite badly.  You are upset but I argue "that you don't have a proof"  :blotto: my dog did it.  Not long after I am posted and you get a new neighbor.

Life goes on.  Your neighbor moves away, and the house sells again.  You wake up one day to see me, again, next door.

And dammit! I have a German Sheppard.  You can see it isn't that other one, it's a younger,  nicer looking dog....but still it's a German Sheppard.

Are you going to walk over and pet it, or would it be reasonable to be wary because the last one turned on you?  You can HOPE it's not like the last one but...it IS the same kind after all...

 

[jmt18325]

Let's pretend we are neighbors;

The thing about people is, they aren't dogs...and we aren't neighbours.

 

[Altair]

Let's pretend we are neighbors;  I own a big, but somewhat older German Sheppard.  One day it bites you, or one of your kids quite badly.  You are upset but I argue "that you don't have a proof"  :blotto: my dog did it.  Not long after I am posted and you get a new neighbor.

Life goes on.  Your neighbor moves away, and the house sells again.  You wake up one day to see me, again, next door.

And dammit! I have a German Sheppard.  You can see it isn't that other one, it's a younger,  nicer looking dog....but still it's a German Sheppard.

Are you going to walk over and pet it, or would it be reasonable to be wary because the last one turned on you?  You can HOPE it's not like the last one but...it IS the same kind after all...

I got robbed by a native once...

Thankfully I don't apply your logic to every new native person I see.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Fine, ignore the concept that was meant.  I will spell it out for you.  This is assuming you aren't being obtuse on purpose.

The best predictor of the future is the past.  In this case, the Liberals past when it comes to replacing needed fucking airplanes.  :

* notice the word predictor, not guarantee.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I got robbed by a native once...

Thankfully I don't apply your logic to every new native person I see.

Your example would lean to racism.  Mine leans to documented historical facts.

But nice try.  (Well...not really but I try to be nice sometimes...try harder next time)

 

[Altair]

Fine, ignore the concept that was meant.  I will spell it out for you.  This is assuming you aren't being obtuse on purpose.

The best predictor of the future is the past.  In this case, the Liberals past when it comes to replacing needed ******* airplanes.  :

fair enough.

As long as you call it what it is, a prediction.

You were stating it as a fact. The fact is, trudeau was elected two days ago, so it's a bit hard to say what he will and will not do.

 

[Altair]

Your example would lean to racism.  Mine leans to documented historical facts.

But nice try.  (Well...not really but I try to be nice sometimes...try harder next time)

it's funny, when stephen harper was elected in 2006, I don't believe anyone was saying he would saddle the army with the LSVW like Kim Campbell did.

One can look at the past as a reference, but to flat out say it's the same old liberal party of old when they were elected all of two days ago, well, truthiness.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

How about we stay on track and avoid the  :duel: stuff?

 

[Altair]

Yes sir.

 

[a_majoor]

Wouldn't shock me at all if they just announce the purchase of 40 or so new Super Hornets and that's all she wrote, although hopefully they would at least purchase the Ultra Hornet.  It would be an easy way out for them, wouldn't be overly expensive, wouldn't get them into a political dogfight over new fighters, and as they aren't going to pour a bunch of money into the military, all of the other fighters would likely be too expensive anyway.  Just saying.

Actually it would shock me (and probably a whole lot of people) if they did purchase anything at all after an expensive and pointless "competition" which various vendors try to pawn 70 and 80's vintage design fighters on the CF. And Super Hornets or the various other potential contenders are going to give you a lot of sticker shock, without offering the capabilities of the CF-35. While I am obviously not an expert in the matter, the idea of trying to retrofit the sensor fusion and networking capabilities of the F-35 onto an older airframe is pretty unlikely, or will result in a fairly improbable aircraft: think of a F-18 "Growler" with most of the hard points devoted to pods of electronics rather than ordinance and you will get the idea.

So it is lose-lose for everyone: The CF will not get a new aircraft, they will not be able to learn or practice "network" warfare for a generation or more (or learn techniques to counter it), the Canadian aerospace industry will be cut out of future contracts (and also not learning and implementing cutting edge technologies to apply to other projects), and we will lose credibility on the world stage as we can no longer back words with actions.

I suppose there is a benefit in watching so called Canadian Nationalists scream in outrage as USAF fighters have to defend Canadian airspace from probes by Russian bombers and UCAVs in the future, but it seems a poor sort of compensation.

 

[Baz]

I suppose there is a benefit in watching so called Canadian Nationalists scream in outrage as USAF fighters have to defend Canadian airspace from probes by Russian bombers and UCAVs in the future, but it seems a poor sort of compensation.

They won't care: we've been using US Tankers and US AWACS for that for years...

 

[MarkOttawa]

AvWeek's Bill Sweetman:

Opinion: Euro-Canards, Boeing Likely To Fight For Canada’s Business
Canada’s election upset heralds a big fighter contest
http://aviationweek.com/defense/opinion-euro-canards-boeing-likely-fight-canada-s-business

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

My musings on an RCAF Gripen notwithstanding - is there a way for the Liberals to save face and buy the F-35 by cobbling together a "better deal"?

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/06/ge-sets-aetd-record/

AIR, CONGRESS
GE Jet Sets Record; Will F-35 Get New AETD Engine?
By COLIN CLARK
on June 18, 2015 at 8:41 AM


PARIS AIR SHOW: Pratt & Whitney has refused to disclose the price of its F135 engines for the F-35 for quite a while, even while Lockheed Martin boasted it would bring down the price of the Joint Strike Fighter to $80 million a copy — including engine.

Now we know why. At a Monday briefing here, the head of Pratt’s F135 program, Mark Buongiorno, told reporters the company didn’t want to release the information because the Adaptive Engine Technology Development (AETD) program’s engines were being tested for dimensions that matched those of the F-35. A more fuel-efficient AETD engine could overcome one of the longstanding concerns about the F-35 in an era of ever deeper anti-access/area denial defenses, its relatively short unrefueled range of a bit more than 600 nautical miles.

Then General Electric put out a release late yesterday about testing for its Adaptive Versatile Engine Technology (ADVENT) project, which achieved the highest combined compressor and turbine temperature operation “in the history of jet engine propulsion.”

That release included this sentence: “It is now being applied to the next step – an engine that could fit an F-35-like aircraft.”

You could almost hear the pin drop. Years after former Defense Secretary Bob Gates pushed hard to kill the so-called second engine program — GE’s F136 — it looks as if GE may be poised to come back with what could be either a second engine for the F-35, a replacement for Pratt’s F135, or the next-generation power plant.

GE finished tests on a new engine, which included the highest combined compressor and turbine temperature operation “in the history of jet engine propulsion.”

Daniel McCormick, general manager of GE’s advanced combat engine programs, said there had been a Preliminary Design Review that involved the Air Force, NASA and Lockheed Martin. The new engine can adapt for either maximum thrust — to outrun an enemy anti-aircraft missile, for example — or long-range cruise — say, to penetrate deeply and stealthily into an enemy air-defense zone.

As more details emerge it will be fascinating to hear how senior Pentagon officials and Air Force leaders view this GE engine: as a technology marvel, the beginnings of the next generation in F-35 power, or as a “second engine.”

Topics: Adaptive Engine Technology Development, Adaptive Versatile Engine Technology, ADVENT, AETD, anti-access area denial, f-35 joint strike fighter, F135, F136, fighters, GE, General Electric, jet engines, Mark Buongiorno, Paris Air Show, Paris Air Show 2015, PAS2015, Pratt Whitney, PrattAndWhitney

If a new engine is possible, if the specs change, if the contractual obligations change - in other words if the facts change will, Justin, like John Maynard Keynes, change his mind?

And he doesn't have to take any decision until the next election (due in 2019) as the Hornets life can be managed into the 2020-2025 window.

He doesn't have to cancel outright a programme that has already been established - he can dither.

 

[Ostrozac]

Instead of looking at the older technology on offer, is it possible to look forward? According to public statements our CF-18 is life extended until 2025, isn't that about the time that F/A-XX is supposed to be coming into service in the US Navy? It'll be expensive as hell, of course, but all of it is. These are jet fighters, not Timex watches, of course they are going to be expensive.

Is is possible for us to skip a generation? And at the same time, in the finest Canadian tradition, kick the problem down the field for ten years for another government to deal with?

 

[The Bread Guy]

My musings on an RCAF Gripen notwithstanding - is there a way for the Liberals to save face and buy the F-35 by cobbling together a "better deal"? .... He doesn't have to cancel outright a programme that has already been established - he can dither.

If the platform promise was "we'll review" or "we'll re-do the process", maaaaaaaaaaybe, but it's hard to fit what you're proposing into what was promised ....

We will not buy the F-35 stealth fighter-bomber.

Accuracy.  Brevity.  Clarity. 
For better, or worse.
Meanwhile, "we're still here"  ;D ....

Oct 22 Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier briefing French aerospace journalists:

* Wrote to Canada PM-elect Trudeau to congratulate and offering Rafale if F-35 no longer considered ....

 

[Loachman]

Liberal election promises are generally meaningless.

Except for a few bad ones.

And few Liberal policies are based upon logic and fact rather than emotion.