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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

jmt18325 said:
I suspect that you don't either, and that you're just pulling things out of thin air.  I'll go with quoted sources over that any day.

Actually, I must apologize jmt18325. I got brain cramp.

My last sentence was meant to read: "I suspect that's what you actually meant to talk about".  No slight on your knowledge base should have appeared anywhere.

Again, my apology. 
 
jmt18325 said:
In fairness, we're only here because the Conservatives took the easy way out and punted this.  The could have just bought the F-35, like they said they would.

And the Liberals can admit to making a mistake during the election and immediately conduct the competition. They can make the choice by late 2017 (according to a retired senior bureaucrat) and have F35's in our inventory by 2020.

I would actually be very impressed if the Liberals did that.
 
since these new planes will most likely be bought though FMS can US government say no to these?
 
The US government must approve all FMS cases, so yes, they could say no.

That said: right now Canada is committing to continue contributing to F35 development while also acquiring Super Hornets - in other words, money to both Boeing and Lockheed.  Can't see anyone in the US government saying "No" to that.
 
PuckChaser said:
76+18 total aircraft between CF18 and SH.
Does that mean we will later get 94 F35 to replace both hornet fleets?
 
MCG said:
Does that mean we will later get 94 F35 to replace both hornet fleets?
Not likely when they're taking the money from the 18 SH from the $9B pot assigned to pay for the 65 F-35s.

They cooked the books to buy 18 fighters from Boeing, hopefully they're not in power to cook the books again to say we only need 65 (or even less).
 
PuckChaser said:
Not likely when they're taking the money from the 18 SH from the $9B pot assigned to pay for the 65 F-35s.

They cooked the books to buy 18 fighters from Boeing, hopefully they're not in power to cook the books again to say we only need 65 (or even less).

It's pretty hard to square that circle with them actually having us meet our fighter fleet requirements for the first time in two decades.
 
jmt18325 said:
It's pretty hard to square that circle with them actually having us meet our fighter fleet requirements for the first time in two decades.
We had the planes to meet the stated requirements. They changed the requirements to make a gap to justify more planes. What's makes you think they won't just change it back later on when it comes to actually spending the big bucks and replace the majority of the fleet? Sticker shock does odd things.
 
PuckChaser said:
We had the planes to meet the stated requirements.

No, we in fact didn't.  We had planes to meet our NORAD requirements, and 'flexibility' to meet our NATO requirements.  Now, it's mandated that we meet both NATO and NORAD requirements (that would mean having something like 42 jets available every day - 36 for NORAD and 6 for NATO).  I see that as a good thing, as it also helps to make us look better in the eyes of our NATO allies.

This decision was all politics, no question, but it's more positive than negative for the RCAF.  The the pronged strategy they've put forward means additional jets soon, more pilots, and a new plane sometime after 5 years (too long, but at least we have a path now).
 
PuckChaser said:
76+18 total aircraft between CF18 and SH.

Well I do like that!

Will they be standing up a new squadron?  Or increasing the number of aircraft per squadron?
 
jmt18325 said:
How many combat missions have they undertaken?  There's nothing wrong with the F-35 - I'm not one of those people.  It's just not quite ready yet.

Yeah, it can do some things. It's not ready yet to do what it's advertised to do.

There are two parts to this. First the Block 2B F-35 has all of the capabilities that the F/A-18E and even more. That's been in service for nearly two years now. Next month the USMC will deploy to Iwakuni Japan, as part of the United States' primary capability to deter Chinese and North Korean aggression in the Eastern Pacific. You have data from Green Flag, Red Flag and several Bold Alligators. This is currently a capability that's combat ready and its going to get a lot more capable. Want to hear how "unready" the USMC feels they are? Watch this video by General Goldfein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4auM08D-S_E

Yes he's being full throated in his support of the F-35B, but does this sound remotely like a capability that we can't throw any current scenario at? Do you really think that in its present form the F-35 can't undertake our NORAD requirements?

Second by the time we even start seeing the F/A-18E, the F-35 will have reached FOC. Israel, who are incredibly picky about what they operate, just purchased another squadron of aircraft this week, and will have their operational squadron up and FOC before we get our "interim" F/A-18E squadron going. Same with the Aussies. Claims that "its not quite ready yet" is just patently, and ridiculously false. Its a dumb as **** position that people who really don't have a clue what their talking about.

And the irony of the its not ready position, is that the government is going to obtain a capability that is already showing obsolescence. We're deploying our fighters to eastern Europe, which is the most deadly threat environment we can send our aircraft... yet we're buying a capability that the US Government says cannot actually operate in. This is why they are considering accelerating F-35 buys.  The government has been clearly warned about it, yet they chose to actually ignore that advice because they want plausible deniability.

JMT you want to make this out to be a smart move by a government who is being reasonable. Be in full knowledge that you are completely off the mark in that assessment, and are naively buying into their propaganda. They basically have ignored ALL of the advice given to them, then gag ordered the military so they could just ride rough shod over their expertise, because guys like the PMO's principle secretary somehow knows better than subject matter experts who have worked in their fields for decades. Perhaps you should wonder why there is not a SINGLE Op ed supporting the government on this. Make all the justifications you want, you're simply parrotting a government who has made a disaster out of this field. Perhaps self awareness is not your strong suit.


Edit: oh yeah, and the Super Hornet costs more than the F-35.... go figure.
 
HB_Pencil said:
JMT you want to make this out to be a smart move by a government who is being reasonable. Be in full knowledge that you are completely off the mark in that assessment, and are naively buying into their propaganda.
They basically have ignored ALL of the advice given to them, then gag ordered the military so they could just ride rough shod over their expertise
you're simply parroting a government who has made a disaster out of this field. Perhaps self awareness is not your strong suit.

I'm just quoting someone who knows what he's talking about.  Some of us prefer informed opinions.
 
HB_Pencil said:
JMT you want to make this out to be a smart move by a government who is being reasonable.

But I didn't say that - not even once.  I think it's a politically driven decision with no basis in reality, just like withdrawing the fighters from Iraq.  What I am in favour of is a larger fighter fleet.  What I am also in favour of is meeting our obligations.  That this stupid decision has a couple of upsides is pure coincidence, but I'll take it.

This forum has to be full of the most condescending people on the internet - even when they're wrong, they're condescending. 
 
jmt18325 said:
But I didn't say that - not even once.  I think it's a politically driven decision with no basis in reality, just like withdrawing the fighters from Iraq.  What I am in favour of is a larger fighter fleet.  What I am also in favour of is meeting our obligations.  That this stupid decision has a couple of upsides is pure coincidence, but I'll take it.

This forum has to be full of the most condescending people on the internet - even when they're wrong, they're condescending.

In a choice between you and HB on this subject- I am going with HB.

I'll take a small fleet of F35s over a large(ish) fleets of Hornets/Super Hornets any day of the week. It is not even a contest, in my mind.
 
And when we come to a contest (not the one in your mind) I fully expect the F-35 to win.  For now, we're getting more capability than we had up to this point, in larger numbers.
 
jmt18325 said:
And when we come to a contest (not the one in your mind) I fully expect the F-35 to win.  For now, we're getting more capability than we had up to this point, in larger numbers.

Not if this Government tilts the (eventual) competition in favour of Boeing.

However, your faith in their evenhandedness is touching.
 
jmt18325 said:
And when we come to a contest (not the one in your mind) I fully expect the F-35 to win.  For now, we're getting more capability than we had up to this point, in larger numbers.
Could we not just go straight to buy 94x F35 in less time and for less money if we go straight to that answer as opposed to first growing the fighter force with an interim buy of 18x super hornets?

 
Fighter jet farce leaves Liberals in awkward spot
Michael Den Tandt
The Whig-Standard
30 Nov 16

You'd think, given the volume of chatter in the House of Commons over the past decade, that RCAF pilots - one of whom died Monday, tragically, in a training accident in Cold Lake, Alta. - would be flying X-wing fighters out of Star Wars by now, and not a ragtag fleet of 1980s-vintage refurbs that were new when many members of the current Parliament were children.

The Liberal government has pledged redress with a sole-source purchase of 18 Boeing Super Hornets - the updated version of Canada's CF-18. So grievous is the "capability gap," of the Royal Canadian Air Force, we're told, there's no time for competitive bids. That's for later, perhaps as many as five years hence when, with due deference to best practices and Treasury Board guidelines, the actual next RCAF fighter will be chosen.

Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II fighter-bomber will be among the competitors at this pageant, gainsaying the Liberals' 2015 election pledge to nix the vaunted "fifth generation" stealth fighter entirely. But never mind: Five years from now is another term, another cabinet, maybe another government.

Politically, it is all quite clever.

First, the RCAF really does badly need new fighters. In an increasingly uncertain geopolitical climate, the opposition Conservatives are in no position to argue forcefully against any purchase that makes the Canadian military more capable. Second is the aerospace contracts, tied to Canada's continuing membership in the F-35 consortium.

Those contracts, held by more than 30 Canadian companies that contribute to Lockheed-Martin's supply chain, are worth more than $600 million. Any final decision to ditch the F-35 would put them at risk - particularly now, we have to assume, with a protectionist U.S.

Congress and a protectionist U.S. president on the ascendant. Kicking this can further down the road keeps Lockheed in the game.

Political cleverness aside, this is dishonest - on several fronts.

First, the "capability gap." It emerged this week that the cabinet, not the RCAF, had arbitrarily changed the definition of how many planes it needed in order to fulfil its basic mandate of protecting Canadian air space and meeting NATO commitments.

This makes sense when you consider the 77 functioning CF-18s are up for another refurb, price tag about $500 million, that will keep them flying until 2025. There may indeed be a looming emergency that requires Canada to have 95 working fighters (77 plus 18) heading into the next decade. If so, what emergency? And at what budgetary cost?

Had the Conservatives dared to quietly grow the RCAF fighter fleet by 23 per cent, at a cost of $65 million to $70 million per plane, the Liberals would have called them warmongers and spendthrifts. To be sure, the Liberals may be embarrassed by the very mention of the CF-18 - having made such a to-do about withdrawing them last spring from the war against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Having beaten swords into ploughshares, they're now buying more swords. How awkward.

More disingenuous still is the claim that a proper, open fighter competition is impossible in short order. The five possible selections are the F-35, Boeing's Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab's Grippen, and Dassault's Rafale. Given an abridged new statement of requirements, a competition could have been run and a new fighter selected in 2017, sources tell me.

Follow the Liberal strategy to its conclusion and you end up with this: A mixed fleet, comprising some CF-18s, 18 newish Super Hornets, and years hence, long after the punters have forgotten Campaign 2015, the F-35 - by which time it, too, will likely be obsolete.
http://www.lfpress.com/2016/11/29/fighter-jet-farce-leaves-liberals-in-awkward-spot

- mod edit to add a link -
 
Excellent phrase:

To be sure, the Liberals may be embarrassed by the very mention of the CF-18 - having made such a to-do about withdrawing them last spring from the war against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Having beaten swords into ploughshares, they're now buying more swords. How awkward.

I've seen no evidence that the term "embarrassed" is even in their vocabulary  :not-again:

... although personally,  I'm increasingly disappointed in our Defence Minister.
 
Welcome to the sixties and seventies all over again. To give it a modern spin, the government is playing the line that the amount a country spends is not important; it is how it is spent that matters.

Next on the agenda - a (large?) budget cut wrapped in fancy rhetoric along the lines of we are taking up the torch in Africa [unsaid which we feel is safer and cheaper] to allow our Allies free rein (or is it free reign) elsewhere.
 
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