The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[KevinB]

Just maybe the Demo team should also be a potentially operational squadron using operational aircraft...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

But they burned bridges where they shouldn’t have, and burned credibility with almost everybody. I’m not sorry that their competition is winning these contracts.

I am if that means, somehow, we end up with a less capable aircraft...like a Gripen.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One of the reasons why the Snow Birds are so spectacular is because of the Tutor. If they switched to the Hornet, it would be an entirely different show.

And too expensive so they'd eventually chop the whole program, probably.

 

[KevinB]

Not a good few weeks for the Super Hornet program.

Further reduction in upgrades for the jets the USN is upgrading to Block 3, eliminated from the RCAF competition, and now apparently eliminated from the Finnish competition as well.

I suspect Boeing as I have said before is less investing in the SH than other airframes.
The F-15EX is going to be a mainstay of the USAF - even with the F-35

On a professional note, I’d just let the Air Force decide which aircraft they get.

I know that isn’t how it works…but they are the experts, they know combat aircraft + current/future tech coming online better than anybody, and pilots very much have a community that talks internally. If they want ‘Machine X’ - get it for them.

Wants versus needs are an issue.
Hence why you have a Performance Spec and Statement of Work.
Users often gravitate to the known, or the new - not necessarily what is best for the role.

On a personal note, I’m don’t feel bad for Boeing one bit.

I know the former CEO is now gone (talk about driving a company into the ground, literally and figuratively) and new management seems to be doing much better.

But they burned bridges where they shouldn’t have, and burned credibility with almost everybody. I’m not sorry that their competition is winning these contracts.

Boeing is too big to fail - sure the SH setbacks are problematic for that segment - but they are intertwined on so many projects with others and have several competing aircraft to the SH as well for most of the roles.

 

[Quirky]

Use for the CF 18 when taken out of service.
I use to attend the Hamilton Air Show ( is that still a thing?) and was able to attend the behind the curtain social gatherings and talk to pilots and other people involved in putting on the big show. There was a demo team who was talking about the Canadian Snow Birds and they were saying if they actually had high performance jets unlike the vintage aircraft they actually flew the show would be 100 times more amazing.
Trade the CF 114 Tutor jets in on stripped down CF 118s. The US Navy Blue Angels use to fly the older model F18s from 1986 till 2020, now they fly the Super Hornet aircraft series.
Just curious

The snowbirds need modern tutors for their use. New engine, avionics and ejection seats. Keep everything else the same. Canada doesn’t need a blue angel team as the smaller town couldn’t support it.

 

[KevinB]

The snowbirds need modern tutors for their use. New engine, avionics and ejection seats. Keep everything else the same. Canada doesn’t need a blue angel team as the smaller town couldn’t support it.

My opinion, is the Snowbird should just go away if they aren't going to fly operational aircraft.
Canada doesn't currently have enough pilots - sending some to fly an ancient trainer doesn't make any sense.

 

[Good2Golf]

My opinion, is the Snowbird should just go away if they aren't going to fly operational aircraft.
Canada doesn't currently have enough pilots - sending some to fly an ancient trainer doesn't make any sense.

Yup. Either pay the incremental cost to have some additional CT-155 Hawks (or whatever aircraft the FAcT project chooses to provide advanced Ph.3 pilot training), or be done with them. As well, in the spirit of purging excess non-core resources, the Sky Hawks could also go — while less expensive proportionately, they represent the same extravagant non-core expenditure that has little correlation to recruiting input to the CAF. I wouldn’t be surprised if more than a tenth of Canadians that know of the Snowbirds could even name the CAF parachute demo team…

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Yup. Either pay the incremental cost to have some additional CT-155 Hawks (or whatever aircraft the FAcT project chooses to provide advanced Ph.3 pilot training), or be done with them. As well, in the spirit of purging excess non-core resources, the Sky Hawks could also go — while less expensive proportionately, they represent the same extravagant non-core expenditure that has little correlation to recruiting input to the CAF. I wouldn’t be surprised if more than a tenth of Canadians that know of the Snowbirds could even name the CAF parachute demo team…

I will admit I had to look it up. I forgot the name.

 

[KevinB]

Yup. Either pay the incremental cost to have some additional CT-155 Hawks (or whatever aircraft the FAcT project chooses to provide advanced Ph.3 pilot training), or be done with them. As well, in the spirit of purging excess non-core resources, the Sky Hawks could also go — while less expensive proportionately, they represent the same extravagant non-core expenditure that has little correlation to recruiting input to the CAF. I wouldn’t be surprised if more than a tenth of Canadians that know of the Snowbirds could even name the CAF parachute demo team…

Let CANSOFCOM field a MFP Demo team if they want after axing the Sky Hawks - I agree with you it's another item that really doesn't give good bang for the buck.

 

[Quirky]

My opinion, is the Snowbird should just go away if they aren't going to fly operational aircraft.
Canada doesn't currently have enough pilots - sending some to fly an ancient trainer doesn't make any sense.

We have plenty of pilots, they are just not getting through the training system fast enough to front line units. The wait list is years for whatever phases of flight training.

 

[CBH99]

Yup. Either pay the incremental cost to have some additional CT-155 Hawks (or whatever aircraft the FAcT project chooses to provide advanced Ph.3 pilot training), or be done with them. As well, in the spirit of purging excess non-core resources, the Sky Hawks could also go — while less expensive proportionately, they represent the same extravagant non-core expenditure that has little correlation to recruiting input to the CAF. I wouldn’t be surprised if more than a tenth of Canadians that know of the Snowbirds could even name the CAF parachute demo team…

I think most Canadians know the Snowbirds. If not, they (or if young people, their parents) should be shamed.

Skyhawks? True. Most people don’t know who they are, nor can I blame them honestly.

 

[FJAG]

I've got a use for the Snowbirds; at least part time. The Army has problems getting enough people certified and recertified as JTACs primarily because the training requires - well - aircraft, and the F18's don't always want to come out to play as often as the Army likes.

Upgrade a few of the Tutors with the comms gear and targeting gear to allow then to do dry missions something like Blue Air Training does in the States. Program the serials in before the show schedule -- Badaboom. You'll increase throughput and get some value for money.

 

[kev994]

We have plenty of pilots, they are just not getting through the training system fast enough to front line units. The wait list is years for whatever phases of flight training.

The front line units are drowning in new pilots who barely know what they’re doing. Our attempts to recruit away our problems was a bit of a predictable flop.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I've got a use for the Snowbirds; at least part time. The Army has problems getting enough people certified and recertified as JTACs primarily because the training requires - well - aircraft, and the F18's don't always want to come out to play as often as the Army likes.

Upgrade a few of the Tutors with the comms gear and targeting gear to allow then to do dry missions something like Blue Air Training does in the States. Program the serials in before the show schedule -- Badaboom. You'll increase throughput and get some value for money.

Conducting CAS is not trivial. Many of the Snowbirds pilots have never employed in a CAS role. That training burden would be enormous, not to mention the aircraft upgrade effort. There is no capacity with the Smowbirds to bear that incremental training bill.

Top Aces provides dry and inert CAS already.

 

[FJAG]

Conducting CAS is not trivial. Many of the Snowbirds pilots have never employed in a CAS role. That training burden would be enormous, not to mention the aircraft upgrade effort. There is no capacity with the Smowbirds to bear that incremental training bill.

Top Aces provides dry and inert CAS already.

Then I got nothing to justify the Snowbirds.

And still wondering about JTAC certification and recertification throughput.

 

[Good2Golf]

Then I got nothing to justify the Snowbirds.

And still wondering about JTAC certification and recertification throughput.

“CATS” does that already. As SSM stated, Top Aces, a subsidiary of Discovery Air, provides JTAC, EW, NTGEX and other training with a variety of tactical aircraft. Decent reference that gives background to the capability.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The front line units are drowning in new pilots who barely know what they’re doing. Our attempts to recruit away our problems was a bit of a predictable flop.

Excellent! We finally have enough leaders to stand up the RCAF Regiment...

 

[LiveFightMove]

My opinion, is the Snowbird should just go away if they aren't going to fly operational aircraft.
Canada doesn't currently have enough pilots - sending some to fly an ancient trainer doesn't make any sense.

 

[SupersonicMax]

“CATS” does that already. As SSM stated, Top Aces, a subsidiary of Discovery Air, provides JTAC, EW, NTGEX and other training with a variety of tactical aircraft. Decent reference that gives background to the capability.

Top Aces is not a subsidiary of Discovery Air anymore.

 

[dimsum]

Excellent! We finally have enough leaders to stand up the RCAF Regiment...

Don't give anyone ideas.