The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[PuckChaser]

Agreed.  Lots of construction work, safety tickets for workers, catering opportunities, supplying of construction materials, etc.

DND needs billions in infrastructure. Call me a cynic but highly doubt Petawawa's horse stables or Kingston's asbestos shacks are getting replaced anytime in the next 20 years...

 

[quadrapiper]

...Kingston's asbestos shacks...

Hey, those are heritage structures!

"Valuable examples of mid-20th-C military vernacular architecture, preserving almost unchanged the era's unique building materials and approaches..."

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Whether it is the right aircraft for Canada is a complex military-political matter to be addressed by those with the appropriate background and knowledge.

Doesn't that disqualify our current PM from participating in the decision?

 

[CBH99]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeclSBTxg6Y


Not advocating for the Gripen at all, was just really impressed with the incredibly short takeoff and landing in this video!    8)

 

[AlexanderM]

https://twitter.com/BoeingCanada/status/1277611314358214656


Not advocating for the Super Hornet Block III.

 

[PuckChaser]

Not advocating for the Super Hornet Block III.

Yeah they're full court press with social media ads to every Canadian right now. Its missing the tagline "Don't worry about us getting a 300% tariff on Bombardier causing them to partner and then sell off all their commercial aerospace jet program."

 

[Retired AF Guy]

The real reason PM Trudeau is against buying the F-35:

 

[GR66]

I just wish all the options had greater range.  For Northern defence and vs potential peer enemies I think that range is something you can't get enough of.

 

[Good2Golf]

You have to strike a balance somewhere. It’s not like long-range, deep strike penetration into a peer or superior adversary’s robust ADA2 environment is on Canada’s requirements list.  Working the MOB>FOL>AAR’d ops isn’t an unreasonable concept supportable from all the contenders to one degree or another.

 

[dapaterson]

The real reason PM Trudeau is against buying the F-35:

Except Canada joined the JSF PSFD MOU in 2002, when a gentleman by the name of Jean Chretien was prime minister...

EDIT: unscramble PSFD

 

[Good2Golf]

Except Canada joined the JSF PSFD MOU in 2002, when a gentleman by the name of Jean Chretien was prime minister...

EDIT: unscramble PSFD

Twisted political win-win.  Previous Liberals good for committing hundred of millions of dollars to the JSF Progam to get billion+ back to industry, but Conservatives evil for....ummm....not...buying the JSF?

 

[MarkOttawa]

PuckChaser: Here are some very detailed posts on the Finnish HX fighter competition (actual fly-off in winter in Finland!) by an excellent Finnish fellow:

Mark
Ottawa

Finnish fighter competition--the start and conclusion of a post by Corporal Frisk wherein he points out weaknesses of F-35A bid (high operating costs may limit fleet size to much) and those of Super Hornet, Gripen E (how many decades ahead will there be substantial user bases?)--so don't rule out Eurofighter and Rafale (gone from RCAF competition):

The Black Horse(s)

I have on a number of occasions stated that the outcome of the HX programme is far from certain, despite the F-35 probably being the fighter to beat...

How is it then with the two dark horses? Surprisingly well, to be honest. The Eurofighter Typhoon has a solid user base, including four major European countries having invested heavily in the system, which provide a depth that significantly improves the chances of it staying in service up to 2060 even if the FCAS and Tempest are already looming at the horizon. The Rafale has a more limited user base, despite scoring three notable export orders recently. Still, France can generally be considered a rather stable user country, and has traditionally held onto its platforms for a long time. Recent examples include the Super Étendard (retired in 2016), the Mirage F1 (retired from the reconnaissance role in 2014), and the Mirage 2000 (still happily serving on in both the ground-attack 2000D and fighter 2000-5 versions). Karl Rieder joked on Twitter when discussing the future of the Super Hornet that buying French is safer, since there’s no budget to change plans. It’s a joke for sure, but there’s also a grain of truth buried within that statement.

So, will 2021 see a showdown between the Rafale and Eurofighter for the HX-prize, the rest having failed the gate checks? Probably not, though I would not be surprised if there is at least someone in the anticipated top-three being kicked out (which based on earlier information, we might know the details of in 2046). At the same time, I am certainly open for the possibility of us getting a surprise winner, and I do not believe anyone who claims they knows the outcome.
https://corporalfrisk.com/2020/07/13/the-black-horses/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[LiveFightMove]

With the deadline for proposals 9 days away, will they be public to some extent for people to see what is being offered?

 

[MilEME09]

With the deadline for proposals 9 days away, will they be public to some extent for people to see what is being offered?

We will likely only get the basic information, and a rough cost of each bid

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Finnish fighter competition--the start and conclusion of a post by Corporal Frisk wherein he points out weaknesses of F-35A bid (high operating costs may limit fleet size to much) and those of Super Hornet, Gripen E (how many decades ahead will there be substantial user bases?)--so don't rule out Eurofighter and Rafale (gone from RCAF competition):

Mark
Ottawa

For a better Canadian perspective, check out Doug Allen's blog Best Fighter for Canada. In his blog Allen compares the three remaining aircraft on the following criteria:

- Politics$;

- Logistics;

- Range;

- Stealth and Countermeasures;

- Maneuverability;

- Sensors;

- Firepower; and,

- Speed.

 

[dimsum]

For a better Canadian perspective, check out Doug Allen's blog Best Fighter for Canada.

I've read a few of his posts.  He's very pro-Gripen, but the reality is that the Gripen E (which is what Saab is proposing) isn't in service yet.  So, sure it *could* have the advantages based on the legacy Gripen, but no one has actually operated it yet, including the Swedes.

Edit:  I wonder how Saab will be able to negotiate the issue with interoperability/security that caused Airbus and Dassault (not small companies) to pull the Typhoon and Rafale from competition.

 

[CBH99]

The one thing the Gripen has going for it, that the others don't, is that it has the potential to reinvigorate the Canadian aerospace industry during a time where it's been beaten to a pulp.

Bombardier, through it's own mismanagement (at the level that truly should be criminal) has sold off almost every asset in it's aerospace folder, essentially eliminating a huge chunk of the Canadian aerospace industry along with it.  (Which is mind-boggling, since the C-series was a huge success as an aircraft, and short sighted politics got in the way).


What the Gripen brings to the table, in addition to being an advanced, nimble little jet - is the opportunity to create hundreds of high tech jobs, as well as a full technology transfer.  Being able to manufacture them, update them, and service them all inside of Canada is the big shot in the arm that the Canadian aerospace industry desperately needs now that Bombardier has single-handedly basically destroyed it.  (With the exception of Viking Air, which unfortunately is a very small player.)


Is it the best jet for Canada?  Probably not.  Although, being able to operate in austere northern environments is kind of what we're all about as a country, 6 to 7 months of the year. 

Has it successfully participated in NATO operations?  Yes, exceptionally so.  Is it designed to excel at air-to-air as a MiG killer?  Yes.  Is it affordable to not only purchase, but also operate?  Yes.

Is it 5th gen?  No.  Able to perform the same capabilities as the F-35?  No.  Is the current, upgraded model in service yet?  No. 



I've seen all 3 of these jets perform at air shows, and the Gripen honestly looks like a children's toy when compared to the others (Just due to it's incredibly small size.)

I am fairly pro F-35, with a Block 3 Super Hornet being my second choice.  But, the Gripen isn't all bad when you consider the health boost it gives to our government directed industrial decline.  :2c:



**All of that being said, IIIIIFFFFFF the Gripen is selected, I hope the manufacturing & technology transfer is done outside of Bombardier.  Even if that means awarding to a different company, or starting up a small crown corporation from scratch.  Bombardier leadership can't be more incompetent, inefficient, and in my own humble opinion, downright criminal.  And yes, I'm mildly bitter about it.**

 

[NavyShooter]

The only worse possible solution would be to give the manufacturing/tech transfer to Irving and getting them to build jets...that'd be terribad.

 

[Quirky]

Is it the best jet for Canada?  Probably not.  Although, being able to operate in austere northern environments is kind of what we're all about as a country, 6 to 7 months of the year. 

F-35 and Super Hornet as just as capable to operate in so-called austere environments. What does that even mean by the way? Expensive fighters will be parked inside climate control hangars overnight, the likelihood of cold-start from -30 is rare. I’ve seen it once in the winter after a crash and the aircraft were quarantined outside overnight. All modern fighters are capable of operation in all-weather environments, the Gripen E isn’t special in that regard.

 

[OldSolduer]

The only worse possible solution would be to give the manufacturing/tech transfer to Irving and getting them to build jets...that'd be terribad.

Terribad???