The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[dapaterson]

AOPS and CSC are Irving in Nova Scotia.  JSS is Seaspan in BC.

 

[Kirkhill]

Maybe I need to learn more poli-speak, but how would the LPC possibly end up selecting the F-35, esp as they had slammed the CPC for years over it and it was a very public campaign promise to cancel it, and possibly dress it up as anything other than "....uh, Harper was right after all."  ???

You underestimate the willingness of folks with a hate on to believe what they will.  Harper will always be the devil incarnate to some.

 

[Kirkhill]

The money is happening, the contracts are signed. The ship count is the question, and whether we have the political will to hold Irving and Seaspan to the promised numbers of CSC and AOPS.

Paint me biased as you will but I strongly believe that the Left Coast will deliver given the opportunity - In fact I think given the opportunity they would have started to deliver Svalbard type AOPS vessels a long whiles back at $100,000,000 a copy.

 

[dapaterson]

You underestimate the willingness of folks with a hate on to believe what they will.  Harper will always be the devil incarnate to some.

As will Trudeau (pere) to others.

 

[Kirkhill]

As will Trudeau (pere) to others.

Yes.  But that is justified......

 

[Good2Golf]

Maybe I need to learn more poli-speak, but how would the LPC possibly end up selecting the F-35, esp as they had slammed the CPC for years over it and it was a very public campaign promise to cancel it, and possibly dress it up as anything other than "....uh, Harper was right after all."  ???

Yes, Minister - 2:29  "Surely a decision's a decision?"

You clicked on the link and listened carefully starting at 2:29, right? 

Try this:  Go straight to 2:29

 

[MarkOttawa]

The only RCN shipbuilding/building contract actually signed is with Irving for A/OPS:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs-report-plan-priorities/2015-status-report-transformational-major-crown-projects.page#P3
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/01/16/mark-collins-contract-signed-for-5-or-6-rcn-arcticoffshore-patrol-ships/
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/09/02/mark-collins-work-actually-starts-on-rcns-first-arcticoffshore-patrol-ship/

Seaspan JSS contract expected 2016:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs-report-plan-priorities/2015-status-report-transformational-major-crown-projects.page#P12

Seaspan CCG icebreaker contract 2018-19:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2015-16/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html#s1.4

Irving CSC 2020 (?!?):
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs-report-plan-priorities/2015-status-report-transformational-major-crown-projects.page#P6

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jmt18325]

That's not true - there is a contract for 3 OFSV.  I'm not sure if the 1 OOSV contract has yet been signed.

 

[MarkOttawa]

jmt18325: note I only said RCN contracts:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/new-offshore-fisheries-science-ship-under-construction-in-north-vancouver-1.3126130

https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/06/15/mark-collins-new-canadian-coast-guard-vessels-sticker-shock-and-never-never-land-media-scrutiny/

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2015-16/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html#s1.2

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Eye In The Sky]

And that, you see, is why I think some Liberal political insiders, senior advisors to Prime Minister designate Trudeau, think cancelling the F-35 is an "easy" promise to keep. They cancelled the EH-101 and the world didn't come to an end. DND found ways and means to keep the Sea Kings in the air, no one died, etc, etc, etc ~ surely they (DND) can do the same again. There are precious few aerospace engineers, probably none who know about Reliability-Availability-Maintainability, amongst the key Liberal political insiders ... they expect that DND can, somehow, manage, as it has in the past.

To add, the argument could be made "but our fighters are in Iraq and Syria now in combat roles with the coalition and all seems well.  Why do we need to replace these if they are still working?"

The same can be said about our CP-140s; it isn't like the fleet is grounded and not able to conduct ops.  The fact that they ARE in combat roles in a theatre now might make it harder to convince people they need replacement, and set their minds that the money would be better used elsewhere.

 

[jmt18325]

jmt18325: note I only said RCN contracts:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/new-offshore-fisheries-science-ship-under-construction-in-north-vancouver-1.3126130

https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/06/15/mark-collins-new-canadian-coast-guard-vessels-sticker-shock-and-never-never-land-media-scrutiny/

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2015-16/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html#s1.2

Mark
Ottawa

I only pointed it out because you mentioned the Diefenbaker.

 

[SupersonicMax]

With this (http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/topstories/bombardier-quebec-cseries-investment-1.3293716), I could see the government selecting the Rafale, built in Canada Quebec, especially given that it is close to Trudeau's turf...

 

[Edward Campbell]

With this (http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/topstories/bombardier-quebec-cseries-investment-1.3293716), I could see the government selecting the Rafale, built in Canada Quebec, especially given that it is close to Trudeau's turf...

You know, Max, I would have no objection in principle to a government choosing a fighter plane based on that criteria if it met just two others:

    1. It is pretty close to the minimally acceptable level of our (refined in light of the government's direction: no F-35) requirements; and

    2. The affordable quantities are sufficient for two (largeish) NORAD squadrons, one or two (smaller) expeditionary squadrons and a training/OTU squadron, etc.

 

[Kirkhill]

Rafale Aircraft

36 Rafale F.3 single seat ordered for the French Air Force in 2004
11 Rafale F.3 twin seat ordered for the French Air Force in 2004
12 Rafale F.3 single seat ordered for the French Navy in 2004
60 Rafale (additional) ordered for French service in 2009

119 Rafale in service?

126 Rafale ordered for Indian service in 2012 (20 BUSD)
24 Rafale ordered for Egyptian service in 2015
24 Rafale ordered for Qatar service in 2015 (7 BUSD)

174 Rafale on order

145 F35s in flight (July 2015) Link

88 F35s in production (July 2015) in the US
22 F35s in production (July 2015) Internationally

145 F35s to 119 Rafales flying
110 F35s in production
43 F35s ordered under LRIP 8 for delivery 2016
First bulk buy of 450 aircraft over three years (150 per year) under negotiation.
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/05/fundamental-change-in-direction-for-f-35-kendall-floats-plan-to-buy-450-planes/

There are already more F35s in the air than Rafales and by the next Canadian Election will outnumber them 2 or 3 to 1.

 

[GAP]

What about a mix of F35's and Rafale Aircraft? is that feasible?

 

[George Wallace]

What about a mix of F35's and Rafale Aircraft? is that feasible?

Back when we had more than one Air Division, it was feasible.  We flew CF 100's, F-86's and F-104's along with the odd T-33.  Later we have Voo Doo's, F- 104's and the odd CF 100 as Electronic Warfare.  So it should be feasible.

 

[Loachman]

What about a mix of F35's and Rafale Aircraft? is that feasible?

Why?

 

[GAP]

Better some than none.....

 

[MarkOttawa]

Chris Pook:

126 Rafale ordered for Indian service in 2012 (20 BUSD)

Actually none yet contracted for, negotiations now ongoing for 36:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/rafale-deal-france-agrees-to-invest-50-of-contracts-worth-in-indias-related-sectors/articleshow/49487260.cms

Mark
Ottawa

 

[GR66]

What about a mix of F35's and Rafale Aircraft? is that feasible?

If you're selecting the Rafale as a multi-role alternative for the F-35 then is there any significant advantage to having two aircraft doing the same things to justify the increased cost of a mixed fleet? 

If you had a different mix...a pure air superiority type of fighter for the NORAD role (F-15C variant?)...and F-35s for the expeditionary strike role then maybe would the double infrastructure, support, service and training costs be worth it?  No idea, but the extra cost should definetly be factored in to any decision to have a mixed fleet.