The Rape of Berlin-the after effects

[1feral1]

Sure some were not, but most were, and it was a cultural issue, as opposed to human nature's dark side. The code of Bushido, and the thought of surrender was never an option for them. The thought of us surrendering was considered a fate worse than death.

Attrocities were carried out on a GRAND scale against Allied PoWs and throughout China and areas. Google Parat Sulong for one example, or the Thai Burma Railroad, Changi Prison, just to name a few. The amount of Allied prisioners caught to those actually returning home speaks for itself.

Acts of canibalism, beheadings, outright torture, the murder of wounded soldiers, and other sickening things were routine.

They were merciless.

I spoke to an old Digger not long ago, he had told me the first Jap he shot was over 6ft tall, fit, and well kitted out, not the weak buck toothed four eyed stereotypical Jap the were told about in training. The Japs fought hard to the end. Overall well desciplined and battle hardened.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[geo]

However, several Japanese soldiers and officers were interviewed in the book and state their disgust at what the CO did. My point is that you can't lump an entire country in a barbarians for the actions of some.

Dave,
Consider that the interview was made, after the war in which the Japanese lost.  No Japanese in his right mind would be quoted as saying that the acts of his CO were quite natural & normal from their perspective.

Consider that Japan has never appologised for the Rape of Nanking, the Comfort Women & pert much everything they did between 1937 and 1945.... that in itself says loads about the Japanese psyche.

 

[DaveTee]

They certainly were, no argument. They occured far more then to be random acts. Your absolutely right with the culutral issue statement. Bushido was the way of the samurai, pretty honorable fellows in their day, and was modified over time to come to represent what was acted on and enforced during the war. Quite a sad thing to have happened.

 

[FascistLibertarian]

Well I will not resort to name calling
I suppose you missed the point where I stated "a lot of Americans" and "those individual Americans"
I never said anything about the entire occupation force, just that sexual violence and the use of military controlled hookers in an issue which we LOVE to look at when it involves the Japanese but dont like to look at when it involves our side.
I, unlike you two, would rather judge the individual than the group.
As to me not understanding combat effectiveness, VD puts people in the hospital, people in the hospital cant fight.
Canadians had the highest rates of VD in ww1 on the Allied side on the western front. In Italy in ww2 they were bad as well. These lowered the number of people we have for operations.
I am not condoning the use of military controlled brothels, but here is my point.
If you are an individual soldier stationed somewhere you have to make your own choice if you want to use hookers or not.
Some soldiers will always use hookers.
If you are a US base commander you have to make your own choice about controlling the hookers to limit VD or not.
The first is individuals making a choice, the 2nd is officially condoning that choice to some degree.

I feel ANYONE can be a war criminal regardless of their sides, sure many more SS than Canadians were war criminals but that doesnt mean that no Canadians committed war crimes or that all SS did.

I assume you are aware of the high levels of VD in some theatres in ww1 and ww2. One way of attempting to lower this rate was having the military controlling prostitution.

Japan’s comfort women: sexual slavery and prostitution during World War II and the US occupation by Yuki Tanaka

See esp 84-182 – these pages have many specific examples of military controlled prostitution.

Pp 84 – Issue of comfort women used by Japan never dealt with by us occupation force despite evidence and reports.

The Brumfield report is not online bc it would embarrass the US too much.
Military controlled brothels were used by the Americans (pp 92-3) British (pp Ibid) and Australians (pp 94). See also page 99 for a war department memo from Brig. Gen. F.H. Osborn about why controlling prostitution by the military is needed.

Pp 101 “From these War Department documents, it can be verified that US military controlled prostitution was widely practiced in the Caribbean as well as Africa, the Middle East, and India”.
See 103-4 about how Australia cared more about the fact that their women were being used as prostitutes for blacks than that they were being used as prostitutes.

Basically the war department official condemned these actions but unofficially condoned them (the reasons for this are obvious).

If you are not aware of the Japanese bending over backwards to accommodate the sexual ‘needs’ of US forces during the occupation by setting up brothels filled with Japanese women for American use (this is extremely well known) just say and Ill post more.

Seeing as this is all fact, and that this didn’t really seem to offend you as much as my last statement, I will move into the rapes in Japan.

Pp 110 -112 for violence of Americans against Japanese in Okinawa during and after the battle and for the next 5 years.

See esp 116-132 for violence and rape during the occupation and the supression of this information, as well see 133-166 for Japan providing comfort women for Americans during the occupation.
pp117 two rapes reported on first day of the occupation.
However most rapes and criminal acts were not reported bc it was pointless. Some white guy did something but theres no way to ID him and the US is not very intrested in punishing him anyways.
pp121 for a gang rape by 27 Americans. Some of the mass rapes were carried out by large numbers of armed Americans with military percision.
pp 121-2 about how often groups or couples of Americans would rape.
123 for hpow MacArthur and Gen Eichelberger's first meeting after the surrender cermony was on Americans raping Japanese.
123-7 for stories by the raped women
I have never said the rapes were condoned by either the US government or officers (although officers and MP's raping were not 'rare'). I personally dont think they did enough to stop these things, but this is my view.

The problem with you two is that your seeing everything as too black and white.
There were bad and good people on both sides.

Earlier in this post one of you said I should say I was sorry.
I am not expecting that from you.
You will probably say I made this all up.

 

[Red 6]

Well there's a fundamental difference between whorehouses set up in Allied occupation zones and what happenend under Japanese rule in the Pacific. There just is no comparison between the two. Yes, there were incidents of rape in Europe by US, Canadian, and British soldiers but this was no national policy and I am willing to bet it was a whole helluva lot less than you seem to think. It was people going outside the rules and regulations set by their forces. A lot more of what happened was business arrangements by desperate women and sex-starved GI's and Tommies. The Japanese government looked at Asian people under their control as sub-humans and exploited them to death. Comfort women were only one example, but this was national policy of the Japanese empire.

 

[TCBF]

I think Brig. Chis Vokes actually tried to set up a military brothel for a Cdn Bde in Italy.  I believe the idea was supported in theatre but shot down in England.  Been a while since I read his biography.

 

[1feral1]

The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
The a lot of the Americans had a field day......

Contradiction lad. Know the defination?

Saying the 'lot of Americans' had a field day of rape, and then comparing this to brothels is apples and oranges.

Sounds like you were judging the group and NOT the individuals??

Considering the quantity of Allied Forces in the occupation of Japan over the years of being there, the quantity of rape crimes is minimal. A statistical part of society is in every niech of people, including the military. Thieves, murderers, and rapists exist within them, most likely to a lesser degree in the general population.

Wes

 

[Roy Harding]

FascistLibrarian:

No, I have NOT read that particular book - but I did find this review of it here (when spare funds allow, I will order the book):  http://ebooks.ebookmall.com/title/japan's-comfort-women-tanaka-ebooks.htm?

Japan's Comfort Women tells the story of the "comfort women" who were forced to enter prostitution to serve the Japanese Imperial army, often living in appalling conditions of sexual slavery. Using a wide range of primary sources, Tanaka for the first time links military controlled prositution with enforced prostitution. He uncovers new and controversial information about the role of US occupation forces in military controlled prostitution, as well as the subsequent "cover-up" of the existence of such a policy. Tanaka asks why US occupation forces did little to help the women, and argues that military authorities organised prostitution to prevent the widespread incidence of GI rape of Japanese women, and to control the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. This groundbreaking book uncovers new material relating to the highly controversial and contentious issue of Japan's comfort women. It will have a deep impact on the ongoing international debate on this highly emotive issue.

Both your statements in earlier posts, and the above review talk about Japan's Comfort Women, and a lack of help from the US occupation forces.  No mention of "American" or "Allied" "Comfort Women".  This doesn't seem to support your argument that such facilities were officially endorsed or established by the Allies.

As for the rest of your argument, there is a fundamental difference between an individual soldier committing a crime (and hopefully being prosecuted for it), and the establishment of official sanctioned organizations, populated by what can reasonably be called slaves.

Were allied soldiers saints?  Absolutely not.  Did some allied soldiers commit rape, amongst other crimes?  Absolutely.  Was forced enslavement of anyone an official policy of any allied forces?  Absolutely not.

Your source and arguments do not support your contention.

Roy

 

[FascistLibertarian]

All I am saying is this is an issue that we dont like to address.
In the first hand accounts of Hong Kong our vets talk a lot about the women that could be paid for sex (they usually claim the other guys and not themselves were doing it of course). Rarely if ever mentioned in our secondary sources.....
The American politicans who draft laws critizing the Japanese conduct would NEVER appologize for the conduct of their own soldiers during the occupation.
I never said it was offical us government policy or that it was as bad as what the Japanese did, that is not the point, just that our people were not all saints but no one wants to talk about the bad things our side did.
WOW

Because I said that Americans used controlled prostituion and there were many rapes during the occupation you guys flipped out.

But its okay because they were not as bad as the Japanese?
You two are real pieces of work you know that.
I guess anything less than what the Japanese did is alright with you?
As long as we didnt do as bad things as them then the bad things we did are all right?

Your the ones comparing two different things. The horrible things the Japanese did have nothing to do with the bad things the Americans did.
You two are unable to look at these things by themselves!
I think that the Americans who raped and those officers who set up military whorehouses are wrong.
But I guess its fine with you two because its not as bad as what the Japanese did.  :

 

[FascistLibertarian]

Well there's a fundamental difference between whorehouses set up in Allied occupation zones and what happenend under Japanese rule in the Pacific. There just is no comparison between the two.

Please show where I compared them in severity?

Saying the 'lot of Americans' had a field day of rape, and then comparing this to brothels is apples and oranges.

Please show where I compared the American rapists to brothels?

 

[Roy Harding]

Well I will not resort to name calling
...

...
You two are real pieces of work you know that.
...

...
I never said it was offical us government policy or that it was as bad as what the Japanese did, that is not the point, just that our people were not all saints but no one wants to talk about the bad things our side did.
...

...
Were allied soldiers saints?  Absolutely not.  Did some allied soldiers commit rape, amongst other crimes?  Absolutely.  Was forced enslavement of anyone an official policy of any allied forces?  Absolutely not.
...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
The a lot of the Americans had a field day......

The implication was there with your first post. You set off a shit storm, as you seem to have intended, and now your trying to dodge it. "I didn't say.......", "I didn't mean.......". That kind of posting could almost be construed as trolling. Why don't you just take your lumps, stop posting about it, and let the thread follow it's natural course.

Next time, spend a moment and compose your thoughts........and then tell us exactly what you mean and are talking about. It would've saved two pages of confusion.

 

[3rd Herd]

Source:
http://www.webcom.com/hrin/parker/c95-11.html

UNITED NATIONS
COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
Fifty-first session
Agenda item 11
War Rape
-"In our view, not only most countries but the entire international arena, including the United Nations itself, is effectively controlled by men and indeed made in men's image. This accounts for the failure until now to even address the situation of war rape, in spite of the fact that in all wars since the beginning to time, rape and violence against women have been a fundamental feature. This also accounts for the failure to raise the issue of violence against women sufficiently (or at all in some cases) in the post-World War II tribunals at Nuremberg and Tokyo, and why these issues are still before us today."

-"Taking the lowest figures, at any given time, there were about 20,000 jugun ianfu. Each of them was raped at least 5 times per day. That means that there were at least 100,000 rapes per day arranged by the Japanese authorities and carried out by its soldiers -- 100,000 rapists per day. 100,000 times at least five days per week equals at least 500,000 rapes per week -- or 2 million per month -- or 24 million per year. Even assuming only 5 years of the programme, there were at least 125 million rapes -- 125 million rapes against the women of Korea, Philippines, Burma, China, Taiwan, Indonesia, Netherlands."

Given the statiscs above the western allies  never even got on the grid. I have Red-6 some files that give the more or less accurate numbers of US rapes in WW2 and Korea. If you would like I can PM them to you from memory all just indivdual cases, no wholesale programs though.

 

[1feral1]

You two are real pieces of work you know that.

No, I just hate dealing with people of your calibre who post some of the most inert shyte, and at least I know my subject matter, and stay in my lane of expertise. I know when I have stepped over the line.

Like I said once, its your reputation and credibility on here, and right now, both couldn't even be used for toilet paper.

Get a life.

 

[Greymatters]

I, unlike you two, would rather judge the individual than the group.

Having relatives from Europe, in particular Germany and Holland, and who lived there during the period you mentioned, I would have to say your sources have exagerated the situation you are describing.       

 

[FascistLibertarian]

I am not backpeddling at all.
I just dont get why you guys think that posting all the horrible stuff the Japanese did has anything to do with how our side conducted itself. The Pacific war was (as I am sure you all know) brutal and racist. While I feel our side had the moral superiority I also think that the bad things we did are glossed over. You all seem to think this means I think that all sides are equal or something (which is clearly never the case in any conflict or situation)

This reminds me of the people who when you start talking about the Japanese internment bring up how bad our boys in Hong Kong were treated. What does the second have to do with the first? We treated our Japanese citizens better than japan treated our POW's BUT thats not the issue.

Using hookers was never US offical policy. But it was known about and looked the other way at very high levels. The use of comfort women by the Japanese was well known, the US never tried anyone for this. And the US pretty much gave the okay for its soldiers to use Japanese comfort women after the war.

Sorry, I guess calling you pieces of work is name calling, I appologize.

 

[geo]

FL...
You might find that most err - pairings of Canadian with Brit / Italian / Dutch / French / Belgian / etc during the war were consentual arrangements. 

Rape is/was not a part of our service traditions.

Germans dehumanised their foes & that made the rape more or less acceptable
The Russians.... they were just getting even.

 

[Red 6]

Using hookers was never US offical policy. But it was known about and looked the other way at very high levels. The use of comfort women by the Japanese was well known, the US never tried anyone for this. And the US pretty much gave the okay for its soldiers to use Japanese comfort women after the war.

So what if American Soldiers and Marines went to whorehouses and what made that in and of itself a war crime?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I don't really give a flying rats ass what happened back then....................because I had nothing to do with it, but, let me see if I got this straight.......

Someone on this thread is comparing paying a woman for sex to making/forcing a woman to have sex?   Wow!!!

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

I just picked up on this thread - WTF?!?

I am not backpeddling at all.

Well, you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE!!!

On the subject of systemic state-sanctioned/tolerated rape in the course of war, you quite rightly broach the subject of Japan in WWII.  However, to have the temerity to START with

The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
The a lot of the Americans had a field day......

while NOT EVEN MENTIONING the issue of the comfort women is insulting, provocative and disgusting in the extreme.  To view that as anything but highly prejudicial defies logic (and good taste):  only an idiot could spend more than five minutes on this site and think the people here are stupid enough accept this kind of crap at face value:

All I am saying is this is an issue that we dont like to address.

...

I just dont get why you guys think that posting all the horrible stuff the Japanese did has anything to do with how our side insulting, conducted itself. The Pacific war was (as I am sure you all know) brutal and racist. While I feel our side had the moral superiority I also think that the bad things we did are glossed over. You all seem to think this means I think that all sides are equal or something (which is clearly never the case in any conflict or situation)

P.S.:

Sorry, I guess calling you pieces of work is name calling, I appologize.

Apologize has one p, genius.