The Rape of Berlin-the after effects

[3rd Herd]

Most of us have a general knowledge of the "Rape of Berlin" and the savargery of the Eastern front warfare. Historians have debated the extent to which it actually occured.

THE OCCUPATION AND ITS OFFSPRING
Lost Red Army Children Search for Fathers
By Irina Repke and Peter Wensierski

More than 60 years after the end of World War II, the children of Red Army soldiers born in eastern Germany during the Soviet occupation are now searching for their fathers with the aid of historians and the Russian media. Many of these so-called "Russian children" have endured lifelong suffering as a consequence of their situation.

Sixty-one-year-old Jan Gregor can still remember "every little gesture and every word my mother said on the day she decided to tell me the truth." His mother had just finished making the beds, recalls Gregor, who was born in the eastern German state of Brandenburg, and was smoothing the bedspread, as she always did, with her broom handle. After carefully putting the broom away, she finally came and sat on the edge of the bed, next to her son. After a long while, he said, she started to tell him her story.

Gregor remembers his mother talking very slowly and deliberately and, although only five years old at the time, he knew instantly what she meant when she talked about "being made pregnant by force."

"I was very mature for my age," he says.
Fifty-six years have passed since his mother told him the truth and for 56 years Jan Gregor has been engaged in a constant search for his father or, to be more precise, his fathers. Gregor's mother revealed to him during their bedside conversation that she had been raped by four Red Army soldiers during the final days of the war. Gregor says he'll continue searching for them "even if it takes a lifetime."

Meanwhile, Verena B., the daughter of a German mother and a Soviet soldier, has come to the end of her long search. After hearing about a "Search Show" on Russian television, she wrote asking if she could appear on it and was promptly invited to Moscow, where she got the surprise of her life. She discovered she had lots of half-brothers and half-sisters she knew nothing about -- her Russian family.

Story continues...................http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,500251,00.html

 

[PMedMoe]

It's sad to think of these "children" searching for their fathers who have probably passed away.  Thankfully, some have found other family members.

 

[geo]

Without trivializing the subject, this has been going on from time immemorial
The Visigoths, Vikings,the Huns, the Mongols, etc, etc, etc

Remember the old saying "Burn, Rape, Pillage" (not necessarily in that order)

War is a hard thing.  Hard on the people who live through it, harder on the people who will follow.

 

[FascistLibertarian]

The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
The a lot of the Americans had a field day......

 

[Roy Harding]

The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
The a lot of the Americans had a field day......

Care to clarify that?  (references would be nice).


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff

 

[3rd Herd]

You mean something like this:

"I. THE REALITY OF THE MILITARY SEXUAL SLAVERY ISSUE

Military sexual slavery by Japan, which occurred during 1932-1945, was not simply the incidental raping of women by occupying soldiers, as has often accompanied war in the world. It was a deliberate, long-term, and systematic institution which was planned, designed, and enforced by the Supreme Commander of the Japanese army. Women between the ages of 11 to 32, 80 % of whom were Korean women, were taken to the Japanese occupied areas by force, deceit, or kidnapping in order to be used as military sex slaves for the Japanese soldiers. They were forced to serve about 30 soldiers daily on weekdays and 50 soldiers a day on weekends. These women were euphemistically called "comfort women". They were often called "Sen Pees", ("Sen" is a derogatory term for Koreans in Japanese, and "Pees" means "vulva" in Chinese).

When the Japanese were defeated, most of these "comfort women" were simply abandoned. Some were forced to commit suicide with soldiers who sacrificed their lives in the name of Japan, while others were killed. A few of the "comfort women" who survived were saved by Allied forces.  Some of these women were taken by Allied military ships to Korea. Many of them stayed abroad because the humiliation and pain were too deep for them to overcome. Even today, most of them suffer from physical illnesses and/or psychological, mental and emotional wounds." THE REALITY OF THE MILITARY SEXUAL SLAVERY ISSUE,This Paper was presented at "The First East Asian Women's Forum," October 20-22,'94, Japan http://www.vcn.bc.ca/alpha/learn/KoreanWomen.htm

 

[Blackadder1916]

As Geo points out this is nothing new (or was nothing new) during the Soviet occupation of Germany.  But as mentioned in the article quoted in the opening post the kreigkinder (war children) were not only the result of forced sex.  Sometimes they were the result of a consensual relationship.  The story of Soviet/German children may be a little different because of the attitude (both official and unofficial) of the Soviet military.  However, they were not the only ones to leave legacies after serving outside their country.  I recall a meeting I had with a young, visibly pregnant (and irate) German woman who was  looking for a recently repatted soldier who left without telling her (he said he would be in Canada on course for a few weeks).  Also, while it wasn't to the same extent as elsewhere there were a few abandoned children of American servicemen floating around Nfld when they had their bases on the island.

http://www.warandchildren.org/who%20are%20they.html

Who are the war children?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The intention of this project is to bring attention to those children who have each of their parents on different sides of the frontlines or who's parents give them a stigma when they grow up. These children's suffering often starts after the war has formally ended. Every war sees children born as a result of contact between local women and soldiers. The soldier might be seen as an enemy - or an allied. The post world war history of Europe has shown that the problems of these children are often similar.

Two groups of "children" (they are not longer kids) have been vocal in raising the issue. The first is the group of children born of American and Canadian soldiers in England and the Netherlands. The other group is the Norwegian children of German soldiers. The two groups are similar. Both groups met discrimination and were stigmatised. And both groups have gone through many difficulties in searching for their fathers. Another group that has received attention is the children of American soldiers that fought in Vietnam. This group is probably the largest, and might number as many as 100.000, when the children born in neighbouring countries are included.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many children of war?
We will never know how many children there are that see their parents separated by war. In Northern Europe where the German occupation force held records of children by German soldiers during the World War 2 the numbers are in tens of thousands. Some estimate that the number of American/Asian children born after the Vietnamese war numbers more than 100 000.

The following numbers must be seen as an estimated minimum and that the numbers other places could be even higher:

Time Name Estimated number of war children
1975 and 1999 East Timor Hundreds from 1999 violence
1997-1999 Sudan Children fathered by abducted girls.
1990-1998 Liberia 25000
1992 Cambodia/UNTAC Hundreds from UN soldiers and administrative staff
1993 Rwanda 2000-5000
1992- Bosnia 8000 pregnancies leading to 4000 children.
1980-2001 Turkey/Kurdistan Hundreds
1948-2001 Burma Hundreds
1980 Iran/Iraq Thousands
1965-1975 Vietnam 40000
1965-1982 Philipines 52000
1972 Bangladesh: Several thousands
1965 Korea/american Several thousands
1940-1945 Korean comfort women: Several thousand
1940-1945 Norway 12000
1941-1945 Frankrike 80000
1941-1945 Nederland 10000-50000
1939-1946 Nederland/Canadian 6000
1944-1949 UK/American 20000
1939-1945 Poland ?
1942-1945 Russland ?
1939-1950 Ukraina ?
1944-1949 British/Canadian 30000

Our estimate brings to the number of children up to more than 300000 children.

 

[Roy Harding]

You mean something like this:

...

Yes - sort of. 

Although I WAS thinking that FascistLibertarian might be able to supply his OWN references regarding his contention that ALLIED troops had a similar "arrangement".

If you have references to support his assertion regarding similar official practices "by our side", please post them here.

I'd MUCH rather hear from FascistLibertarian regarding his sources, however.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff

 

[1feral1]

The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
The a lot of the Americans had a field day......

A little bit of a bite by me...

I might come accross a little harsh here, but its posts like this which really eat at me!


WTF??

Where did you find this info? Off some lefty anti-US website? Or perhaps the toilet wall of a gay bar?

What a crock of shyte!

Seriously (as mentioned in an above post), we know of the disgrace of Japanese Imperial Forces use of 'comfort women' many who were Korean sex slaves, even used on troop ships, and accompanied the troops to some degree into the rear ech areas, but what is the other crap you are saying about widespread US Forces having field days of rape in occupied Japan?

Isolated incidents of rape although a total disgrace, do occurr even in modern warfare. I think of more recent times, a certain 'alleged' mental assylum, and publicised incidents in Viet Nam and yes Iraq too. War crimes happen.

I did not think generic US Forces went on a RPB spree after VP (thats Victory in the Pacific), and quite frankly, sounds very disrespectful for you to outright accuse US occupying forces in Japan of doing such. Your accusation openly dishonours the US Vets of the Pacific Theatre, and thats wrong!!

As for our use of hookers, I am sure some 'partake' throughout military history over the centuries, and in modern times, well some soldiers, sailors and airmen have used them too (me - never  ;D ), as have the normal population of the towns and cities. Here in Australia prostitution is legal, and when a big US a/c carrier or other nationality's Navy comes to Sydney or or Brisbane, the 'flatbackers' export themselves from all accross the country to get in on the action. Its not my cup of tea, but a fact. Life goes on.

Personally, it sounds like you are doing a little bit of US bashing at its finest.

Many may choose to have a field day on you for posting such crap!

Just remember, its your reputation and credibility on here, not ours.

I think an open appology is next in order, don't you? Time to do the right thing and muster up some testosterone by giving that ball-bag a squeeze.

Yes, I am disgusted. You have pressed the right buttons for me


Wes

 

[geo]

Canadian troops going through Sicily, Italy, France, Holand & Germany... I am not suggesting that we sheltered a bunch of rapists but, 9 months after the Canadian Army went through, babies started to make themselves heard.

After Vietnam, there were many coloured vietnamese children, ostracized by the communist regime, the kids started looking for their dads.  I would venture to think that you will find plenty in Korea, Japan.  These are not the result of rapes, they are the result of violent times and a country at war.  The women were either the Wives, Girldfriends or Women of the night - surviving as best they could.

The Russians occupying Germany had an axe to grind & after having seen their country raped by the germans, they really and truly helped themselves.

The Japanese occupying China/Korea/Phillipines & the Germans occupying Russia/western Europe... well they helped themselves.

 

[FascistLibertarian]

I dont have the book with me right now but will be able to give u refrences in the next few days (I am movign and everything is pretty much packed up).
However Roy Harding and Wesley Down Under I was just wondering what books you have read ont he comfort women issue?
The book I read was far far harsher on the Japanese than the Americans but looked at the comfort women issue in regards to the larger Pacfic Theatre.
Most of the books written focus simply on the Japanese because they lost and their crimes were so brutal.
As well most Americans dont want to read about the bad things their troops did.
Does anyone focus on our side doing these bad things? Of course not, why would they, as the reaction to my statement has shown its not a history people want to remember.

Having organized hookers was a nessecity back then to control VD rates which were a seriouse problem to the combat effectiveness of the troops.
I agree 100% that this pales compared to the Japanse but that doesnt make it morally right.
As to the issue of rapes and American crimes in Japan, they were pretty bad, I am not blaming it on the Americans collectively, those individual Americans who raped and stole are guitly!

 

[1feral1]

However Roy Harding and Wesley Down Under I was just wondering what books you have read ont he comfort women issue?

What? Do you think we are phucking idiots?

I am at work on lunch right now, but one book in particular is in the WW2 Time Life Series - do you want me to quote you page and para, and sub para? However if you doubt us, try googling 'comfort women'. There is 14,000,000 references waiting for you, and don't gotta be a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Your statement you made is stupid!

We all know there is indiividual crimes, and thats a fact, but you paint the whole occupying force, and thats wrong.

You're a real piece of work!

Wes

 

[George Wallace]

FascistLibertarian

How old are you?  I ask, because you post and use the logic of a prepubescent teen.

 

[1feral1]

1. Most of the books written focus simply on the Japanese because they lost and their crimes were so brutal.

2. As well most Americans dont want to read about the bad things their troops did.

3. Having organized hookers was a nessecity back then to control VD rates which were a seriouse problem to the combat effectiveness of the troops.

1  - Because they lost? They were war criminals and barbaric beyond a joke to Allied (US, Australian British and yes Canadians too - and of course others) PWs and to the Chinese and Koreans. Infact sinfully sick is a better statement.

2. - Why not? Its history, but its nothing like you are painting it.

3.  A nessecity eh, so you condone the use of sex slaves? VD rates? What do you know about combat effectiveness?


It sounds like these are your own assumptions and you've been literally been pulling them from your arse!

Your entire posts in this subject are unfounded and silly.



Shakes head in disbelief,

Wes

 

[1feral1]

FascistLibertarian

How old are you?  I ask, because you post and use the logic of a prepubescent teen.

+1 George. I fully agree.

Wes

 

[TCBF]

Having organized hookers was a necessity back then to control VD rates which were a serious problem to the combat effectiveness of the troops.

- I would hazard a guess that with the widespread occurrence of AIDS (and a few of the more odious strains of the classic nasties) that there would be more of a reason NOW for the introduction (or re-introduction as the case may be) of Mobile Field Brothels in most militaries.

- Perhaps then, some of our younger soldiers - thus sated - might be a little pickier when they mate for life.

- If it saves one administrative burden, it's worth it!

;D

 

[TCBF]

"Two groups of "children" (they are not longer kids) have been vocal in raising the issue. The first is the group of children born of American and Canadian soldiers in England and the Netherlands. The other group is the Norwegian children of German soldiers."

- Matter of fact, from the ABBA website:

"Anni-Frid Synni Lyngstad, better known simply as Frida, was born November 15, 1945 in Ballangen outside of Narvik, Norway. Her father was Alfred Haase, a German soldier, and her mother, Synni Lyngstad, was a Norwegian teenage girl. Frida’s father left Norway before Frida was born, and was thought to have vanished when his ship was sunk on the way back to Germany.

18 months after Frida’s birth she moved to Sweden with her grandmother, Agny. Synni soon joined them, but tragically, less than two years after Frida was born, her mother died. Frida grew up with her grandmother in Torshälla, just outside of the town of Eskilstuna."

http://www.abbasite.com/people/bio.php?id=398

 

[Red 6]

I don't know anything about the Germans and brothels, etc, but there is absolutely no comparison to the so-called "comfort women" forcibly kidnapped into sexual slavery by the Japanese and anything in relation to the allied forces in World War II. I'd like to know what sort of things we in the US don't want to read about in this respect, especially since I've always been extremely interested in World War II. Standing by...

 

[1feral1]

I don't know anything about the Germans and brothels, etc, but there is absolutely no comparison to the so-called "comfort women" forcibly kidnapped into sexual slavery by the Japanese and anything in relation to the allied forces in World War II. I'd like to know what sort of things we in the US don't want to read about in this respect, especially since I've always been extremely interested in World War II. Standing by...

WRT FL, I think you'll be waiting a long time Red.

Another classic example of why some animals eat their young.

Wes

 

[DaveTee]

1  - Because they lost? They were war criminals and barbaric beyond a joke to Allied (US, Australian British and yes Canadians too - and of course others) PWs and to the Chinese and Koreans. Infact sinfully sick is a better statement.

I'm not getting into the whole rape / brothel quagmire. I just want to address this quote. Not ALL Japanese soldiers were "barbaric". James Bradley who wrote Flags of Our Fathers also wrote the book Flyboys. It is about a raid on Chichi Jima, the same one where George Bush Sr. was shot down and retrieved by submarine. Others who landed on the island after being shot down were beheaded and had some of their organs eaten by the commanding officer of the Japanese garrison. Now that IS barbaric, hideous and wrong. However, several Japanese soldiers and officers were interviewed in the book and state their disgust at what the CO did. My point is that you can't lump an entire country in a barbarians for the actions of some. Yes there were several terrible and unforgivable war crimes committed during WWII but you can't blame the average Japanese conscript for it when he would be beaten nearly to death if he refused to bayonet Chinese prisoners. It was a harsh system to all involved and I'm sure I'm about to take a lot of flak for this one.