The "Occupy" Movement

[Fishbone Jones]

What good are those skills when I can hire someone with the same skills and a BSc in Asia for 10$ a day. Most of the jobs being created here are service industry and pay close to minimum wage. In the US the number of jobs is rising but the total tax revenue is steadily dropping.(The jobs are crap.)

Our trade deficit is over 10 billion a year now. Think of what that would be without the 50 billion in oil exports per year. Thank God for petro dollars.

I don't see how an economy can work without manufacturing stuff. So occupy/civil unrest is just beginning as things are not going to get any better. When in Asia I was fascinated how my bits of paper from Canada could buy me anything I dreamed of. Eventually they will wake up and not want useless bits of paper. Then we will have to make our workers compete with 10$ a day. Wages need to drop. Things will be a mess during the transition when the majority of the working class have no useful work and no longer have the buying power to drive the economy.

I'm lucky enough to be able to invest in Asia now to escape the failing economy here. It  doesn't feel fair but I can make more money doing that than working. Don't have much choice since where I work has telegraphed that outsourcing plans will be completed in about 3 to 4 years. I should be enjoying my capitalist savvy, but I want the country I grew up in. I want to work for my wages, but that seems to be for suckers in the current system.  In a few years I will be outsourced for a second time in my life. If I was young I would be pissed. What opportunity is there? (Other than joining the army or police to quell the coming civil unrest/domestic terrorists.  > )

Will you please stop with the "I hate the system" "I hate what it's doing to our country" "We have to cut wages" "We are failing" crap, all the while you also say you're milking it for all it's worth.

You don't hate the system, you don't care what it's doing to the country, you're not going to take a $10.00 wage and you're not doing anything to stop the failure.

You're sucking the system dry like a two dollar whore.

You should really try politics. You know, say one thing to get votes and then do the exact opposite after being elected. The transition should be fairly simple for someone like you.

Some may probably deduce your an opportunistic leech, a weasel and a complete hypocrite.

However, that's for them to decide.

At any rate, your socialistic platitudes ring as hollow as an empty 45 gallon oil drum and you're not worth conversing with anymore.

Flippin' the switch...........now.

 

[GAP]

:goodpost:

 

[Sythen]

I don't have the proof but a gut feeling....so take my comments for what it is worth.

There are lots of lazy dirt bags out there who don't want to work and love the occupy movement, it's the modern day "hippy-ism".

But there are lots of people that are skilled/unskilled alike with terrific work ethic that are having a terrible time getting/holding onto a job. We have discussed this before. Please, no ten second emotional replies about "all they have to do...blah, blah, blah..."

You are not living that in that persons life and don't know all the factors. The reality these days are, is there are more people unemployed than whats been in awhile. Industry in Canada is shrinking and thats partially our own fault. The gap between the "haves" and "have nots" is getting larger. An aging baby boomer population is changing the demograph of the Canadian economy and lifestyle. The future is very cloudy for many people.

I refer to the 2008 wall street bail outs (yes it was in the USA but what happens down here on that scale, influences things up here, Canada is not in a bubble) because it shows an example of disgusting greed and money grabbing by top of the money chain individuals (One dude paid himself 470 million dollars for his performance pay after the bail out, fooking disgusting using american tax money up like that).

I fear that things will get uglier before they get better. Has anybody looked at the "occupy movement" as a warning or a symptom of something bigger happening or about to come?

You ask for no "10 second emotional replies" but the fact of the matter is if you have a good work ethic and the skills necessary, then you have a job already. I have met dozens of people who claim (Occupy Walts maybe?) they were part of the groups camping out last year.. To a person, they all had either no post secondary or useless degrees in things like women's studies, etc. For those without schooling, I always asked them why they don't work for McDonald's or something to start saving some money for school. They said they wouldn't reduce themselves to that point. This is 100% of the people I've asked replied like this. Although I can't back this up as anything but an anecdote, the problem with the vast majority of Occupiers is that they think they are too good for some jobs. I have yet to meet someone with skills and drive who was at the Occupy movement and doesn't have a job. Until I start meeting those people, the Occupiers will remain in my view a spoiled bunch of children.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If you truly wish to provide jobs for people with a work ethic but insufficient aptitude and education to participate in the knowledge/management economy, stop transferring wealth to public servants.  Cut public payrolls significantly (~25%) and leave the revenues in the taxpayers' pockets.  Most will likely use it to reduce debt, but some will be spent to employ home renovators, landscapers, recreational company employees, etc - jobs not requiring extensive intelligence or education, which can not be exported overseas.

That should be the basic strategy: free up funds to employ people at jobs that can not be exported (ie. can't be done remotely).  The "25%" (those capable of, and most with, a university education) do not need any help - they, if anyone, are perfectly capable of fending for themselves in a highly competitive environment if only we can create one.  It is a peculiar thing when they are the species most protected by government.

 

[ArmyRick]

Sythen,

At no point did I say any occupier was good or bad... Each one is there for his/her reason. Some of them as I have said are genuine dirt bags.

I am not here to defend a any occupier. I am that guy that says consider the other guys point of view. So you do not know a single skilled occupier? OK, does that mean they don't exist?

Ignoring protest like this is in my opinion, similar to ignoring early signs of cancer. If things do not get better, those protest will get worse.

So if you have job skills and a good work ethic, then you have a job already?

Come on up to Bruce, Grey and Simcoe Counties sometime. There are plenty of people with both that do not/can not find a job be it at McDonalds, Tim Hortons, etc, etc.

Finding a part time job is usually done within 1-3 weeks. But thats the catch, up here where I live, most people find 1-3 part time jobs to get by.

Here is my thought to counter what most people have to say, stop generalizing.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

stop transferring wealth to public servants. 

...and yet, somehow, I'm not just rolling in money.

Your pony needs another trick...............

 

[Sythen]

Sythen,

At no point did I say any occupier was good or bad... Each one is there for his/her reason. Some of them as I have said are genuine dirt bags.

I am not here to defend a any occupier. I am that guy that says consider the other guys point of view. So you do not know a single skilled occupier? OK, does that mean they don't exist?

Ignoring protest like this is in my opinion, similar to ignoring early signs of cancer. If things do not get better, those protest will get worse.

So if you have job skills and a good work ethic, then you have a job already?

Come on up to Bruce, Grey and Simcoe Counties sometime. There are plenty of people with both that do not/can not find a job be it at McDonalds, Tim Hortons, etc, etc.

Finding a part time job is usually done within 1-3 weeks. But thats the catch, up here where I live, most people find 1-3 part time jobs to get by.

Here is my thought to counter what most people have to say, stop generalizing.

No, if they are ignored they will go away. It might take time, but eventually their funding will dry up and the attention vampires will move on to the next thing. If the people in your area were motivated, they would move to where there is work. I am from NB originally. After 5 years of call center work and nothing else, I moved to Toronto for something better and never looked back. I currently live in Ottawa and there are tons of jobs here. No amount of protesting is going to make unproductive areas economically viable for everyone. To think otherwise is to ignore reality. The Occupiers are a joke and anyone who tries to justify their continued presence needs to open their eyes.

 

[Edward Campbell]

While there are real equality problems in our 21st century societies - not just in the so called West, either - the root causes of the "occupy" movement, the source of the discontent is: unfilled dreams. Life, post high school or university, is cold and cruel - few things are given. To understand this, consider this story which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.html

Edmonton teacher suspended for giving 0s

CBC News

Posted: May 31, 2012

An Edmonton high school teacher says he has been suspended for giving students zeros on uncompleted assignments or exams.

Lynden Dorval, a physics teacher at Ross Sheppard High School, has been giving the mark for work that wasn't handed in or tests not taken even though it goes against the school's "no-zero" policy.

The thinking behind the policy is that failing to complete assignments is a behavioural issue and marks should reflect ability, not behaviour.

Dorval said he couldn't in good conscience comply with the rule.

"I just didn't have a choice," he said. "I just couldn't not do it. I tried to talk myself out of it many times, but it was just something so important to me, I just had to go through with it."

The policy was adopted by the school 1½ years ago, Dorval said.

Students' mark based on completed work

Teachers were told to no longer give zeros. Instead an uncompleted test or assignment would be marked with a comment.

The student's mark would then be based on whatever work is done.

"It's what they call social promotion," Dorval said "It's a way of pushing kids through even though they're not actually doing the work. It's a way of getting them through, getting their credits and of course making the staff look very good."

Teachers were instructed to use their "informed professional judgement" at the end of the year when handing out marks, he said.

"Some would, in fact, lower the mark on what wasn't done," Dorval said. "Other teachers would just let the mark go, so there was a real inconsistency on how (the policy) was being applied."

Dorval believes the policy leaves students with the impression they don't need to be accountable for their actions, he said.

'Student should be accountable'

"That's against what I've been doing my whole career because I believe the student should be accountable for what they're doing."

Dorval said he always gave uncompleted work what is called "reluctant zeros," where his students were given a number of opportunities to make up the assignment and have the zero replaced with a mark.

"Most of my students did that," he said. "By the end of the year, I hardly had any zeros at all."

He does recall however, one student who had only completed six of 15 items.

Parents are largely unaware of the policy, as teachers were instructed not to speak about it, he said.

Other schools in the Edmonton public system also use no-zero marking, he said.

Schools as far away as Ontario and Texas had also adopted, but later abandoned the philosophy.

Most teachers support him, Dorval says

Dorval was suspended earlier this month and is no longer allowed on school property.

But he said most teachers at the school support him and are envious that he can afford to take a stand.

"I have 35 years. I don't really want to retire now, but if I have to, I can retire and live on my pension.

He accepts by going public he will likely be fired.

"To me this is the right thing," he said. "It had to be done."

The Edmonton Public Schools said Dorval was not suspended over the zero grade policy.

"The situation is far more serious and complex," the district said on its Facebook site. "This is a staff discipline issue and we can’t speak to the specifics of this individual case.

"The School Act authorizes suspensions for only three reasons: if there are reasonable grounds for believing the teacher has been guilty of gross misconduct, neglecting the teacher’s duty or neglecting to obey a lawful order of the board."

The superintendent of Edmonton Public Schools, Edgar Schmidt, refused to discuss the specifics of Dorval's case during a hastily-called news conference Thursday afternoon.

Instead, he told reporters that it's important for teachers to know and follow the rules.

"When an assessment plan has been put in place at a school level, it's my expectation that every staff member will stick to that plan and make sure they are supportive of the work of the entire staff and the principal in relation to student assessment," Schmidt said.

"And giving good information to students about the work they are actually doing."

Dorval believes he was suspended for insubordination. He will likely appeal his suspension.

If you pass through a system, one occupying the majority of your twentysomething years on the planet, in which you "succeed" no matter how little work you actually do, if you are "rewarded" for doing nothing then it is not surprising that you have a reasonable, even rational expectation that you will find he same thing when school/university ends: a well paying job that suits your interests and skills, however limited they may be.

The "occupy" movement is just another children's crusade, as is the Quebec students' protest, but this time they are being super-conservative: they don't want anything to change ... failure, a zero, is not to be tolerated ... "gimme, Gimme, GIMME."

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

... "gimme, Gimme, GIMME."

Yes, but when a kid has a tantrum in the grocery store for one of those chocolate bars conveniently displayed in the checkout aisle and the parent's give in just to keep the kid quiet,....who's fault is it?

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm not arguing that "we" have not done this TO our kids, Bruce. Last winter I attended a lecture/book promotion by Amy Chua ~ there is a lot to argue about (pro and con) in her recent best-seller Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother but not with her central thesis point that we, many (most?) Western parents are not doing our kids any favours by feeding their "self-esteem" at the expense of real achievements. There are good arguments that our, Western, education systems are better at producing creative thinkers and innovators but I would suggest that Hong Kong and Singapre have both caught up with us in the creativity area and maintained their established superiority in 'hard' academic achievement, and Shanghai, at least (with a population about the same as Canada's), is learning from them.

 

[Nemo888]

That is true. In many Philippine villages and small Chinese towns the most impressive building in the entire area is the school. Asia is nuts about education right now.

 

[GAP]

Then there is the other end of the spectrum.....................

Man abandons daughter over bad grades
By QMI Agency
Article Link

A Pennsylvania man pleaded guilty to abandoning his teenage daughter, reportedly because of a bad calculus grade.

Cops were called to an intersection in Cheltenham, Pa., on Feb. 22 by people who said a child was asking strangers for a place to stay, the Ambler Gazette newspaper reported.

Authorities said that, after an argument at home about the 16-year-old girl's grades, her father told her she had an hour to pack and that she couldn't live with her family anymore.

Cops said dad Tuan Huynh drove her 20 km from home and let her out at a street corner near a mall with only her backpack and a small satchel, without provisions, money or a cellphone, the Ambler Gazette reported.
end

 

[Brad Sallows]

>...and yet, somehow, I'm not just rolling in money.

I assume you aren't represented by one of the unions that has so impressively pumped the handle of the one-way ratchet for the past four decades.

 

[a_majoor]

Nemo, if you are reading this, here are some suggestions for you:

1. If you are really that upset about your position in life, PM me. I can probably pony up a syndicate of investors and buy you out. You will also have the satisfaction of seeing a larger number of small investors become a bit better off.

2. Tithe 10% of your income to your Church. Helping the poor through charity work is one of the roles of the Church, and your contribution will be much appreciated.

3. If you don't belong to a church, contribute 10% of your income to a charity of your choice. It can be the Afghan School Project or Save the Spotted Owls, whatever cause you choose to support.

4. Contribute 10% of your income to Junior Achievement. This group teaches valuable life skills to young people and helps prepare them for the real world, so they have a better chance to meet the economic climate once they leave school. Volunteer your time to JA as well.

5. Become an angel investor and help small business start-ups. Most small business fail due to under capitalization, so you would be providing a direct helping hand in creating jobs and new wealth in Canada.

Capitalism isn't about accumulating capital (which is what most socialists seem to believe), it is about the management and use of capital. If you have a large amount of capital (however you get it) then put it to use.

 

[Scott]

Or you can give Tess, Danjanou and I a few bob and we'll be happy for a while!

OR, you could throw some money at the very website you're posting on. Hey, what an idea!!! We recently had a drive for some new hardware, you must have missed the call. But I am sure Mike would appreciate the help any time...

Hit Subcribe I know for a fact that you can drop a few more bucks in there if you so please.

 

[Jarnhamar]

While there are real equality problems in our 21st century societies - not just in the so called West, either - the root causes of the "occupy" movement, the source of the discontent is: unfilled dreams. Life, post high school or university, is cold and cruel - few things are given. To understand this, consider this story which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.html

If you pass through a system, one occupying the majority of your twentysomething years on the planet, in which you "succeed" no matter how little work you actually do, if you are "rewarded" for doing nothing then it is not surprising that you have a reasonable, even rational expectation that you will find he same thing when school/university ends: a well paying job that suits your interests and skills, however limited they may be.

The "occupy" movement is just another children's crusade, as is the Quebec students' protest, but this time they are being super-conservative: they don't want anything to change ... failure, a zero, is not to be tolerated ... "gimme, Gimme, GIMME."

This is the problem.

University kids take OSAP go out partying drinking their face off buying $300 jeans bomb exams and whine and bitch about school being too hard. Now when they don't bother to complete an assignment they don't fail it they get graded on what they DID do?  That's totally setting these cry babies up for success in life.

I didn't fix the customers computer like I was supposed to but I DID reinstall a few programs, when can I get paid?

 

[ArmyRick]

Sythen,

Last time and listen up. Quick answers "Pack up and move" ARE NOT THE ANSWER!!! We discussed this several pages ago. What is everybody in rural Ontario supposed to do? Pack up and move to the city? GET REAL. You think because you found success that everybody else can. Not so.

Pack up and move to another part of the country is an easy answer for a single person who is willing and able to do it. What about the person with a family? What about someone with a house with mortgage owing on it and can not sell the house? I could go on and on about factors you haven't even considered.

I will stress it, YOUR success formula does not/will not work for everybody else.

BTW, I make a comfortable amount of money working two jobs but I am watching friends go through hell. You can't tell all of rural Ontario to pack up and move, not going to work.

I realize there are lazy welfare collecting bums out there, I am not talking about them. Go beyond the occupy movement and look at the economy as a whole.

BTW, occupy movements and similar movements (I am not part of any these organizations, nor do I support them) will NOT simply go away. I am saying ask the questions "Why are they existing in the first place?" or "How are these movements as large as they are?".

Here is a comparison. If your car starts making funny engine noises, you could ignore it and hope its not an issue. Or you could look at the problem and figure out whats going on.

I don't want my tax money paying millions in security cost, damage cost from protest, legal proceedings, potential medical cost, etc, etc. These protest will likely only get bigger and more destructive unless you deal with the root of the problem.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

What is everybody in rural Ontario supposed to do? Pack up and move to the city? GET REAL. You think because you found success that everybody else can. Not so.


BTW, occupy movements and similar movements (I am not part of any these organizations, nor do I support them) will NOT simply go away. I am saying ask the questions "Why are they existing in the first place?" or "How are these movements as large as they are?".

Being from Rural Ontario (Grey-Bruce Counties- about as rural as it gets) I can say that the majority of people left the area at College-University age, with SOME but not most returning owing to lack of opportunities in professional type jobs.  Those that stayed have done well in the agricultural and manufacturing industries remaining, with some of the people who went to college or university trickling back doing some of the professional jobs.  But in all honesty, out of a graduating class of 100ish, I would say that 70-80 left and haven't returned.  So yes, you do have to pack up and move out.  That's just part of life.  However, to be completely fair, people from my home areas also aren't the ones lining up in the OCCUPY protests, and there is little "poverty", though there is poor.

Second Point- The OCCUPY movement exists because pampered, crying university or recently graduated university types haven't managed to find the $60,000-$80,000 job that they expected right out of college.  Laziness and entitlement=Occupy movement.  I would also say that the movements aren't particularly large, with 2000-3000 people taking part in the Occupy Toronto day of movement.  To put that into perspective- that is 1/7 of the people who attend an AVERAGE Blue Jays game, 1/2 the population of Hanover, Ontario, or the average attendance of an OHL game.  Let the Revolution begin! 

 

[Nemo888]

Nemo, if you are reading this, here are some suggestions for you:

1. If you are really that upset about your position in life, PM me. I can probably pony up a syndicate of investors and buy you out. You will also have the satisfaction of seeing a larger number of small investors become a bit better off.

2. Tithe 10% of your income to your Church. Helping the poor through charity work is one of the roles of the Church, and your contribution will be much appreciated.

3. If you don't belong to a church, contribute 10% of your income to a charity of your choice. It can be the Afghan School Project or Save the Spotted Owls, whatever cause you choose to support.

4. Contribute 10% of your income to Junior Achievement. This group teaches valuable life skills to young people and helps prepare them for the real world, so they have a better chance to meet the economic climate once they leave school. Volunteer your time to JA as well.

5. Become an angel investor and help small business start-ups. Most small business fail due to under capitalization, so you would be providing a direct helping hand in creating jobs and new wealth in Canada.

Capitalism isn't about accumulating capital (which is what most socialists seem to believe), it is about the management and use of capital. If you have a large amount of capital (however you get it) then put it to use.

I don't think anyone would want to buy it. I got the idea when a person at the hospital who works in stores was complaining about the price of a disposable/single use item. Suppliers were screwing the hospital on price. So I brought one of them to Asia with me to find a factory that made them. With some help I found one. The risk is great. The supplier can stop overcharging at any time. I was not exaggerating when I said the price was 3000% above factory wholesale. So I'll eat their lunch for as long as I can. If I get too greedy they will notice sooner. When I get a bigger shipment and actually post a profit I'll donate. That should be within 60 days. I'd like to make enough to go to Asia at least once a year. I have a few other business ideas.

 

[a_majoor]

I'm sure lots of people will want to buy it. I'm even more sure that some of these people have all kinds of brilliant ideas of where they can go with this (sadly. I'm not one of them). I'm also sure that a fair portion of these people will not have the experience, werewithal or sheer stubborness to actually make a go of it.

I applaud you for finding an opportunity, taking the chance to make it work, and hope that in 60 days you will see your profit (and no this is not sacrasm). You have an opportunity, now go do something with it.