The "Occupy" Movement

[Haletown]

OWS . .  white middle/upper class children of the Me Generation devolve into the Gimme Generation.

Maybe a good dose of cold, hunger, filth and desperation will cure them of their desire, their belief to have someone else pay for the lifestyle they feel entitled to.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

We seem to be, very quickly, coming back to Page One of this discussion.

The clock is ticking.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Nemo888]

It is complicated now. We have become so efficient we no longer need the working class for manufacturing or agriculture. I could make hundreds of headlights a day at the auto parts factory I worked at. One area I worked we had to compete with a robot. If we fell behind quota we would be replaced. This made the job rather dangerous as corners needed to be cut and chemical exposure was quite high. Chinese workers make 90c and hour at good manufacturing jobs. What do we do with those who used to do those jobs?  Some are smart and can get retrained, but what about the rest?

 

[Edward Campbell]

The "Occupy" movement is dead; it was, in fact, stillborn - there was some post-natal thrashing about but the thing was brain dead at birth.

The issues that Adbusters raised remain important - mainly inequality (although Adbusters got the numbers wrong) amongst e.g. the "celebrity CEOs" and their stock trading kin (rather than all the rich and successful) and the productive workers (not the unproductive poor, who don't, really, matter all that much).

This thread can die, too, because we can have these useful debates in e.g. Making Canada Relevant ~, etc.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It is complicated now. We have become so efficient we no longer need the working class for manufacturing or agriculture. I could make hundreds of headlights a day at the auto parts factory I worked at. One area I worked we had to compete with a robot. If we fell behind quota we would be replaced. This made the job rather dangerous as corners needed to be cut and chemical exposure was quite high. Chinese workers make 90c and hour at good manufacturing jobs. What do we do with those who used to do those jobs?  some are smart and can get retrained, but what about the rest?

In Canada, every worker has the right to refuse unsafe work.

And before the argument comes that they'd just be fired, or laid off, if a worker follows the legislated process and the employer is found wanting, orders would be laid and it becomes incumbent on the employer to solve the problem with an engineered solution. All other avenues have to be exhausted before it comes down to the worker status. Firing or otherwise dismissing a worker for a safety problem is a reprisal. Reprisals aren't allowed under the law.

 

[Edward Campbell]

It is complicated now. We have become so efficient we no longer need the working class for manufacturing or agriculture. I could make hundreds of headlights a day at the auto parts factory I worked at. One area I worked we had to compete with a robot. If we fell behind quota we would be replaced. This made the job rather dangerous as corners needed to be cut and chemical exposure was quite high. Chinese workers make 90c and hour at good manufacturing jobs. What do we do with those who used to do those jobs?  Some are smart and can get retrained, but what about the rest?

Those Chinese workers now get about $1.95/hour and their low-skill jobs are moving to really poor places in Indonesia and the Philippines.

The answer, as I have said (maybe too often) before is not equality of outcomes, what Obama and the NDP want to dictate, but, rather, equality of opportunity which really means better schools for all even, maybe especially, in poor neighbourhoods and it also, in my opinion means school meal programmes for many, many kids because they have poor, stupid or neglectful parents and it seems clear to me that hungry kids do not learn well. My guess is that 10 half decent meals a week would do more for public education than all the Education faculties of all North American universities combined.

 

[OldSolduer]

OWS . .  white middle/upper class children of the Me Generation devolve into the Gimme Generation.

Maybe a good dose of cold, hunger, filth and desperation will cure them of their desire, their belief to have someone else pay for the lifestyle they feel entitled to.

I have asked for the book "The Great Depression" by Pierre Berton for Christmas.

I was raised by parents who lived through that.

I agree with you.

 

[ballz]

My guess is that 10 half decent meals a week would do more for public education than all the Education faculties of all North American universities combined.

But providing meals for impoverished children is an "investment," (is apparently a socialist term) that the ideologically hard right-wing won't accept no matter how much the pay-off is... :-\

You would have a hard time getting a meal program in Canada for this reason, my guess is it's a dream to get it in the US where the equality of opportunity (which I agree, is the problem) is a serious issue (I don't think it's that big of an issue in Canada... things can always improve of course).

 

[Edward Campbell]

But providing meals for impoverished children is an "investment," (is apparently a socialist term) that the ideologically hard right-wing won't accept no matter how much the pay-off is... :-\

You would have a hard time getting a meal program in Canada for this reason, my guess is it's a dream to get it in the US where the equality of opportunity (which I agree, is the problem) is a serious issue (I don't think it's that big of an issue in Canada... things can always improve of course).

I agree - the extremes of the political spectrum hard left and hard right are equally impervious to reason. There are socio-cultural problems in public education, just as there are economic problems and technology (use of same) problems but all of those systemic problems have a way of working themselves out. Hungry children are a problem for the education "front lines" and for society at large. If I'm right, if hungry children do not learn as well as adequately fed children, then we who decline to feed them about 10 inexpensive, nutritious meals a week are guilty of wasting our most valuable natural resource. We might as well all punch holes in our gas tanks and let the stuff drain into the sewers - that would be only slightly less wasteful than throwing away our future workers and leaders.

 

[Sapplicant]

re: Meal Program

I remember distinctly the breakfast program which every school I attended, from elementary school in NB right through to high school in Ontario. Milk, toast/bagel, some fruit, orange juice, granola. It was available for every student who wanted it, "rich or poor". Granted, that only accounts for 5 of the 10 meals a week required for the "investment" to pay off the greatest possible dividends. It should still be available, unless they scrapped sometime in the past 10 years (which would be a profoundly retarded decision, so I wouldn't put it past them). Interestingly enough, I managed to get my cafeteria lunch for free in 7th and 8th grade because I was the kid who spent his lunch break washing the plates and cutlery in the cafeteria dishpit.

Fastfoward to my adult years, and fall christmas tree harvest. This is a job that requires the company that runs the farm to take on an extra 60-70 workers than they normally employ throughout the growing season. Too many of the employees were too stupid to bring a real lunch, instead opting for a pack of smokes, bottle of water, and thermos of coffee. Possibly a joint or 2 as well. Anyhow, the owners found that productivity between 1 and 5 pm dipped signifigantly, and decided to try something new. They built a couple of break shacks out of old 53' trailers and hired caterers to feed everyone hot lunches. They also extended lunch (and the work day) by a half hour. Their afternoon productivity skyrocketed. However, there was much bickering amongst the owners before they implemented this. Point is, they found a way to look past their differences, stopped insulting each other, and recognized that they all had something to bring to the table. Once they did those 3 simple things, shit got done, and done right.

 

[mariomike]

Children's breakfast clubs can be started - at least in a modest way - without the politics.

Rick reached out to the community he served:
"The Rick Boustead Breakfast Club is funded and operated by Toronto EMS. This was the first such club in Toronto, started in 1984 and is located at 30 Falstaff Road. There are now over 20 clubs in Toronto. The Toronto Breakfast Club’s philosophy is that every child is entitled to a nutritious breakfast which helps them prepare for a day of learning. After they eat the children are given a craft or special guests come to speak with the 45-55 children, ages 3-12, who pass through every day.":
http://breakfastclubs.ca/club-Falstaff.php
"All other programs were modeled after Falstaff." 

 

[Sapplicant]

A quick look into the stats yielded that 1/9 children in Canada live below the poverty line. It's a given that they ought to be afforded the opportunity to be fed. How much would it cost to give each of them a lunch every school day, and where to we find this money? Would 1/9 even truly represent the number of kids who go lunchless? Odds are the cost isn't something so monumental that it can't be met. I'm willing to bet it would be very easy to "trim some fat" in other departments and instead do something productive with those funds.

 

[GAP]

A quick look into the stats yielded that 1/9 children in Canada live below the poverty line. It's a given that they ought to be afforded the opportunity to be fed. How much would it cost to give each of them a lunch every school day, and where to we find this money? Would 1/9 even truly represent the number of kids who go lunchless? Odds are the cost isn't something so monumental that it can't be met. I'm willing to bet it would be very easy to "trim some fat" in other departments and instead do something productive with those funds.

That's easy to say, until you realize a huge chunk of those kids are concentrated in specific areas.

In most cases breadfast/lunch programs have been developed through cooperation between parent groups/schools/etc. where those needs are being met.

 

[Sapplicant]

That's easy to say, until you realize a huge chunk of those kids are concentrated in specific areas.

In most cases breadfast/lunch programs have been developed through cooperation between parent groups/schools/etc. where those needs are being met.

Well then, since we only have a small chunck to worry about now, I guess it would be even less expensive to implement, n'est pas?

 

[vonGarvin]

Instead of determining which of the 1/9 kids are below the poverty line, and how to ensure that they are, and how to administer a program that caters only to the 1 of 9, why not make is universal?  Sure, some rich kids will get two free* meals a day, but don't for get that mommy and daddy pay much more in taxes anyway, so, no big deal.

How much would it actually cost to provide breakfast and lunch for every pupil in Canada? 

 

[Sapplicant]

Instead of determining which of the 1/9 kids are below the poverty line, and how to ensure that they are, and how to administer a program that caters only to the 1 of 9, why not make is universal?  Sure, some rich kids will get two free* meals a day, but don't for get that mommy and daddy pay much more in taxes anyway, so, no big deal.

How much would it actually cost to provide breakfast and lunch for every pupil in Canada?

Also keep in mind, just because mom and dad can afford to send little jonny to school with a full lunchbucket, doesn't mean that they actually do. Nor does having a lunch necessitate that the kid will actually eat it.

 

[a_majoor]

Since economic education seesm to be in short supply, lets try one more time:

1. Any business will only hire the amount of labour it needs (demands) at the lowest possible price. The price is dependent on the overall demand for that type of labour and how many of those workers actualy exist. Plumbers and other skilled tradesmen are in short supply these days, hence the pretty good living skilled trades make.

2. As a businessman, why would I hire more labour than I need regardless of the price? how is that price dependent on what I make? (there is a very real potential that my "draw from my startup will be $0 for the first year or so; that will  ot affect how many people I need to hire or the skillsets I need)

3. Non inflationary wage increases are possible. IF there is an increasing demand a particular type of labour, or labour in general, then wages will rise to attract workers, as we see in Alberta and North Dakota these days in the resource industry. Skilled trades are making more money since the relative supply is less than the overall demand. The other way to get non inflationary wage increases is to eliminate the supply of labour, the Black Death in Europe cut the population by @ 30%, and wages increased accordingly since there were fewer people to do anything at all (much less skilled trades). The two generations of high wages is thought to be one of the key drivers of the Reniassance.

4. Rising wages due to inflation is an effect, not the primary cause of inflation. Since the money supply is expanding rapidly and prices are being bid up, workers will also demand their wages increase to match. Now they have more money to bid up prices of finished products (they rarely buy raw comodity goods), which increases inflation even more.

5. School meal programs are a comon feature in many schools, but empirical evidence in the form of increased average marks etc. does not seem to correlate directly with these programs. Indeed, the amount of money spent on schools in general has increased by an astonishing amount, yet students learn far less than previous generations. I have seen old textbooks for high school which resemble modern university texts, and there have been anecdotes floated on the Internet of tests from the 1950's being administered to modern students, which todays student simply could not do. Basd on my observations of officer and junior leadership candidates under my instruction over the years, I have no difficulty believing this. School boards with limited budgets have outperformed school boards with lavish budgets (and comparing provinces and states is also instructive). This would suggest the realissue isn't money or what sorts of programs and support are being offered but pedagology; how the children are being taught. As for how meal programs can be delivered, there are many options including private charities, vouchers and volunteerism as well as bureaucratic school programs (the one in my area throws away a huge amount of food since "everyone" is entitled, but the students who don't need it don't eat it).

6. About the only correct statement is that some boards pay their CEO's far too much compared to the productivity/market share, and those companies deserve to fail (some do). Crony capitalists have rigged the game to get bailouts from their political connections, thus freeing them from the discipline of the market for greater or lesser periods of time. Solendra went broke shortly after receiving $550 million in loan garuntees, while the CBC can blunder along with a miniscule market share and even the inability to meet basic technical requirements (converting transmitters from analogue to digital) since they get a $1.6 billion dollar handout every year.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Instead of determining which of the 1/9 kids are below the poverty line, and how to ensure that they are, and how to administer a program that caters only to the 1 of 9, why not make is universal?  Sure, some rich kids will get two free* meals a day, but don't for get that mommy and daddy pay much more in taxes anyway, so, no big deal.

How much would it actually cost to provide breakfast and lunch for every pupil in Canada?

I honestly have no idea, but:

1. The cost of food is, probably, the least amount;

2. There are "hardware" and infrastructure costs - kitchens, transportation of "hay boxes" to schools without kitchens, etc, etc, etc; and

3. Above all there would be high, unionized, labour costs for cooking, serving, transporting, cleaning, planning and managing.

Still, despite the costs that I expect would be high, I believe the benefits would outweigh them. I am inclined to the view that the best crime prevention programme is a half decent education, that the best cure for our drug use problem is education, that the key to productivity and prosperity is education, and I am persuaded that hungry kids do not learn very well.

And yes, I write a letter about this to my provincial MPP and to the premier every year, cc: my local school board folks and even my federal MP.

 

[Sapplicant]

It's easy to point out the symptoms, and reasons for the symptoms. It's also easy to point out that yes, that gash on my arm that has been bleeding for almost 4 hours, but I put a bandaid on it 3 hours ago so it'll be just fine.

Here are some symptoms:

Parents sends kid to school with lunch, kid won't eat it. Kid goes hungry.

Parents lets kid pack own lunch, kid eats a chocolate bar, bag of chips, pudding, and a can of pop. Kid goes off the wall for an hour, then goes hungry.

Parents sends kid to school with money to buy what kid wants from cafeteria for lunch, kid secretly saves up money to buy latest tech-toy. Kid goes hungry.

Parents buys kid everything they could possibly want, sends kid to school with money to buy what kid wants from cafeteria for lunch. Kid spends money on weed, and goes VERY hungry.

Trying to give the kid everything they want has bankrupted parents, kid now has to rely on "meal program for poor kids" at school, but turns it down for fear of what others might think. Kid STILL goes hungry!!

We have a problem here. We need REAL solutions, ideas which haven't been yet brought forth, or that possibly have but were deemed crazy, but might have been just crazy enough to actually work.

And this, the issue of kids not getting the nutrition (among other things) they need to perform properly at school, is just one of the many problems that need solving in order for the world to ccontinue to prosper.

 

[Sapplicant]

I have seen old textbooks for high school which resemble modern university texts, and there have been anecdotes floated on the Internet of tests from the 1950's being administered to modern students, which todays student simply could not do.

This may come off as disrespectful toward my elders given my age, but I'm saying it anyways.

I've met and worked with many, MANY people who were around when those 'original' tests were being give who couldn't do them either. Believe me, there's a great number of people my age who have the ability to pass those tests.

Of course, back then you didn't give amphetamines to smart kids who were bored in the hopes of shutting them up for 12 years, you actually fostered their minds and abilities.  ;D