The "Nursing Officer" Merged Thread

[Fraser.g]

I understand and agree that MedTecs can and will do the majority of first line care on casualties and patients. The fact is that the scope of practice is incredibly broad for any professional. What I, and others, have suggested is that some specialization is possible.
I would not ask an OR nurse to function in my environment (ER) or me in theirs. To make a broad statement that all medics can do all roles is setting us up for disaster. All medics should have a basic skill set and be exposed to as broad an education as possible but after that there has to be specific advanced skills taught to an individual depending on the environment that they work in.
When I was in the colledge of nursing I was exposed to the diverse areas that I could work in. In medicine it is the same. On graduation I made the decision as to which field I wanted to go. In Medicine there is a lengthy residency to learn a whole specialized skill set. The last time a nurse is a generic or a doctor is the same is when they walk across the stage to get their degree.
It is my belief that the same should be said for the medic trade.
It is also my belief that nurses could do a more broad role in the CF.
If you have the resources but not use them to their fullest is foolish.

My two cents.

 

[starlight_745]

How about making PA an officer trade similar to other militaries?  When medics are interested in becoming PA's they apply and if accepted get commisioned as a 2Lt and do direct patient care similar to an MO/NO.  Keep the med tech trade and expand it and add more skills at the QL3/5 level allowing medics to progress more.  Also with civilian PA schools seeming to be on the horizon it would allow the CF to recruit PA's into the military and have them start at a relatively junior rank.  There's no way you could recruit one and make them a WO.

 

[Fraser.g]

I seem to remember the concept of non-leadership ranks being bantered about a while back. The idea was to that a clinical specialist could hold a rank and therefore pay at a rank that acknowledges their skills but not leadership. There was issue with pers holding rank but not the command training like lawyers (Capt. entry level) NOs (Lt. entry) MOs (Capt entry) etc.
I think it fell by the way side a while back.

GF

 

[Andrea_Dawn]

I am seriously thinking of doing my Nursing degree through the CF. I have spent the last few months trying to gather all the info possible about joining the CF. If there are any women (or men) out there who have done or are currently doing their BScN through the military.....please give me a run down of how this whole process works. I have lots of questions....such as...do women and men in basic training share rooms? ??? What do you do for the summers in between school years? Anyway, if ANYONE out there can help me out that would be fantastic! This web site is great, it's answered a lot of questions for me already. Thanks!!

 

[Inch]

Well, I went to BOTC with a couple nurses.  It's an ROTP program or DEO just like every other officer entry plan, the difference being you won't go to RMC since nursing isn't offered there.  If you go ROTP they'll pay for tuition and books plus pay you a tiny salary while you're at the school of choice. Keep in mind that the salary is small, like $1100/ month BEFORE taxes. It's not a lot so living with family or at home would really benefit you. You'd do basic training probably in 2 parts, part 1 before your first year and part 2 between 1st & 2nd year as well as french.  Then your next 2 summers will be contact training (a fancy way of saying you'll be spending the summer at a military hospital learning the tools of the trade.  Once you graduate you go to Borden for your basic nursing officer course and you're off and working after that.

No, men and women do not share rooms. This isn't Sweden. In fact, the only gang showers you'll find as an officer are locker rooms.

Cheers

 

[tree hugger]

Right now, ROTP OCdts get $1311/mo before taxes, works out to $509 twice a mo.

 

[Fraser.g]

I have heard that there is a movement afoot to restrict officer command positons to HCAs only both in the regular and Reserve forces. Great on paper but will it work in the reserve?
The forces does not offer BNOC or BMOC for the Nursing or Medical officers so they send them on the HCA track. I have heard that even though they are qualifying them into leadership positions they will not be eligible in the future.

Does any one know more on this initiative?

I have been counseled to become an HCA so that I can stay on the leadership track. By this is the army indicating that they would rather have administrators than practitioners?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Until you see a pertinent piece of paper with CF H Svcs Gp letterhead, treat it as:

1) rumour, or

2) mangled fact.

The reserve only has one stream of courses for all medical branch officers.  What was suggested and discussed over the past couple of years - and I don't recall seeing it in writing as decided policy - was that medical professionals could join the reserve and advance in rank as medical professionals without taking some (any?) of the usual career courses.  However, by opting out they would be excluded from positions in the chain of command.  It would be a choice, not an imposition.

This could potentially cause some grief.  I strongly suggest seeking clarification through the chain of command (could be as simple as an email from your CO to the Reserve Advisor).

Purely my opinion: there is very little in the reserve medical branch officer track (including army and CF common training) that is not good common dog stuff for any medical branch officer, and it is only a grand total of 13 weeks for the whole shot: BCT(3), MOSC*(2), ICT(2), ACT(2), MCSC*(2), JRCSC(2), plus pre-study for the staff packages.  If there are classifications better suited to those with minimal time to spare, I don't know what they are.  The RUMOUR I most recently heard was a suggestion MCSC would be removed as a requirement or prerequisite for JRCSC for medical branch officers (the army requires it), but that strikes me as nonsensical - MCSC gives a much better grounding in operational planning process than JRCSC, and you might as well be a bag of hammers if you don't understand the workings of an army formation and you are trying to plan medical support for one.  In fact I think it would be useful to at least develop on-line voluntary self-study packages (amounting to a couple of days effort each) on medical support to air and naval operations, aimed at the Capt/Maj level.

*Or whatever the army reserve changes to follow the AOC

 

[Fraser.g]

Sir,

Thank you for the clarification,
I know that listening to rumors is a bad thing in any form but this one really had me conflicted and concerned.
thank you again for the quick responce.

G Fraser

 

[MedCorps]

The Reg F still runs a BNOC once a year, and there is no indication that they are going to stop.  We also do the medical MOC common "phase III" the Basic Field Health Services Course.   

They are also sending 57A's on leadership courses (I am on CLFCSC AOC as of Monday with the rest of the Army, and have completed ITC-1 [when it existed] and more recently ATOC-CSS).  I also know they are putting NOs in field leadership positions (I have been a Platoon Commander for 3 years, there are a few other NO Platoon Commanders in my Coy, the Coy 2 I/C and Coy OC are NOs).  The reality is that most NOs do not want to learn/  do this stuff, and are happy being pure clinicians.  That is goood also, because we need pure clinicians also... as long as they have the  tactical awareness, and soldier skills that go with being one of Her Majesty's Officers.  That is a whole other story. 

This is in the Regs... not sure what is happening in the ResF. 

Cheers,

MC

 

[Armymedic]

The reality is that most NOs do not want to learn/ do this stuff, and are happy being pure clinicians. That is goood also, because we need pure clinicians also...

Hence why nurses shouldn't leave the hospital and all leadership positions should be HCA's and as dictated by position, MO's ie Brigade/base/Wing Surgeons....

Knowing your affiliation MC, I can tell you think this is a good idea... ;D

 

[vr]

In my experience with the Medical Reserve world NO's have always been expected to at some point in their careers fill line postions ie Platoon Commander.  The simple reason being is that we have such a constant shortage of qualified officers that we can't afford to have purely "clinical" officers.  Up until the recent re-vamping of the Reserve TOE there were never many clinical postions anyways.

 

[HCA]

Can you even imagine a world where we had a surplus of officers and could have purely clinical positions? In my unit we would require at least 4 officers in hard positions currently being filled by Snr NCO's before we could even think about having the luxury of clinical positions.

 

[Fraser.g]

As MC put it that in his opinion "The reality is that most NOs do not want to learn/  do this stuff, and are happy being pure clinicians.  That is Good also, because we need pure clinicians also..."
Absolutely, if an NO wants to be a pure clinician then that is their choice but if they are prepared with the courses for leadership positions they should not be restricted because they are an NO and not an HCA. In the  Res F HCAs and NOs as well as MOs have to do the same leadership track. If you are going to send them on the courses then let them do the job that they are being trained for. If you do not then you are waisting the resource that you are trying so hard to recruit.

 

[MedCorps]

I think (I know) that by having a certain number of NO's duel tracked in both the Clinical and Command / Field path is value added for the Medical Branch.  Having some NO's cross  trained allowes for economy and flexibility on operation (2 of the principles of CSS).  I also know that there are certain positions in the Medical Branch (staff) that you want someone who has both skillsets , because they have foresight (another CSS principle) of both tactical and clinical matters. 

RN RPN - at this time Ref F MOs do not do the Basic Health Services Field Course, ATOC or CLFCSC, so they really have no training in the field tactics / command.  This is one of the problems with the Medical Branch IMHO. 

Cheers,

MC

 

[Fraser.g]

Ahh and there is the rub, I see more clinical challenges in one shift than you could possibly see in a year of MIR duty. This leaves me ample army time to devote to the leadership aspect and not sacrifice my clinical skills as ArmyMedic would suggest to MC.

 

[MedCorps]

Remuster TO the Infantry <sigh>... I remustered FROM the infantry to escape it <smile>!!!!

Clinical... well, sure clinical sometimes takes a back seat.  Right now for me, I am developing as a Field Medical Services Officer... it is my time.  Sooner or later it will be back to clinical for a few years I reckon (or not). 

I am quite lucky however that my CO  was kind enough to coughed up the $3600.00 in TD / Accn / meals to send me to a "level 1" ER / Trauma Centre for a month last March.  It was good to get back into the swing of things again.  The deal was that I maximized my time on patient and thus was working 12 hours x 5 days a week (shift) for 4 weeks and came up with inexpensive lodging.  Still not enough (as that was my first clinical (read: touch patient) MSCP in 15 months, but much more useful and more enjoyable than slumming in the MIR <smile>). 

Cheers,

MC

 

[Fraser.g]

Remuster To the combat arms, no thanks, been there and done that. Infantry for three and Combat Engineer for Ten is enough mud for me. I value the experiences that it gave me and hopefully pass the enthusiasm of the combat arms on to my troops especially when it comes to field craft.

 

[Armymedic]

Please teach them...

1. stuff that won't get them killed if something real ever happens,
2. stuff that is relevent,
3. the correct way...

For example, demonstrate how to prod your way out of a minefield...even get them to practice it...Then end the class by saying this is only a last resort when you are all alone and about to die....

Seems someone was teaching said class around here and people now think a medic can prod into a minefield to get a casualty. (the way I teach...no engineers, it sucks to be the casualty)

anyway thats getting off the nursing topic.

 

[Fraser.g]

I have designed mine warfare lectures so that they get the general knowledge that is required for MLOC and then goes into more detail for each trade. I talk to the Svc Bn more in detail about road blocks and extrication from a vehicle after a strike, to the infantry I address breaching in more detail and to the medics types of casualties from the blast waves, shrapnel, etc.

In this way I can pass on my knowledge and real time experience while also hopfully giving the participants valuable information that they can actually use.

It does confuse some members when a Nursing Officer is giving a mine warfair class 

GF