The Military Police [MP] Superthread

[Stirling N6123]

Okay, I will do just that. I have my choice of applying right now to civillain services like Ottawa, Durham, Toronto, but I am the only one who outta my family has never served in any branch of the Military. And, I think it would be an adventure I could look forward too on a daily basis. Thanks for the info.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

I have debated for a while wether or not to post this or not but i will and stir the pot some more.

There is a world of difference between the Res MP's and the Reg MP's more so then maybe any other trade in the forces.   Res MP's are not specially appointed personal under either the NDA or CC of C.   They are there to augment the Reg force as they go over seas, very little if any of their training is baes in the civi policing side of things. (yea i know some civi cops are res mps and that is their way of playing solider)

To make the training fair would not solve anything as that is not the role that they are to fill.

Do we need reserve MP's yes for the role they are designed for, field duties.   Not for Garrison Policing.   Going to a guard house on a weekend is not a role for reserve MP's i would rather see the MPPL guys there to keep their skills up then have a reserve mp ride along.

They a) have no powers of arrest

        b) can carry none of the ccoutrement's patrol member must wear

        c)   ARE NOT BADGE CARRYING MEMBERS

If you want to play cop in your spare time join the Air force reserve not the army reserve MP world.

I also have issues with them wearing red berets in Canada and that bugs me (personally). They are not the policing authourity and have no such powers.  

Now i know this will upset some of them but this is not a bash.   You have a role to fill i see you want to expand into others area's and get speciallized but that is not your role.   You don't see infantry guys wanting to get on pilots crse cause they might have to help them some day.

I agree your role is invaluable to the deployed forces and maybe in that area it should be expanded.   But the 6 month reg force crse and the 3 week or 5 week reserve crse are two totally seperate birds.   Not even close to the same.    

my quarter ran out

 

[Lawrence]

I have debated for a while wether or not to post this or not but i will and stir the pot some more.

Do we need reserve MP's yes for the role they are designed for, field duties.  Not for Garrison Policing.  Going to a guard house on a weekend is not a role for reserve MP's i would rather see the MPPL guys there to keep their skills up then have a reserve mp ride along.

They a) have no powers of arrest

        b) can carry none of the ccoutrement's patrol member must wear

        c)  ARE NOT BADGE CARRYING MEMBERS

Powers of arrest fall under the Security Guard part of the NDA or Sec 494 of the CC.  Last time I worked with the Regs I was carrying a browing and a baton.  We were going to carry OC but again the Res. Side of the house doesn't know how long a real use of force course is and they didn't book it properly.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

You wore a browing and a batton in Canada on Patrol Really.

I call BS on that one.   Maybe over seas while fullfilling your duties.  

When was the last time you used SAMPIS, or did police report?

That Security guard clause if for weapons and vault guards not Patrols.

Last time i checked i did not see reserve MP's mentioned in sect 156 of the NDA or any section of the CC of C

Any person has powers of arrest under 494 that goes for any civi in CANADA. But what are your powers under 495 ahhh none as you are not in 2 (g) (i) of the CC of C are you.

Learn from the Rock

if you forget his saying PM me

This is not to bash the reserves you fill an important role but don't try and stretch it into areas where you have no authority.  What you do is a valuable service but it is that role you fill not others.

 

[Kurhaus]

We have guardhouses full of PEPs and because of piss poor planning there are Cpls overseeing PEPS who have no idea what their doing. Read some of the branch technical directives that come out and you'll see that not all is rosy. The last one I read spoke to major problems with AV interviews (basic cop stuff). My point is this; if we have problems with the "trained" guys (and believe me outside the NIS I wouldn't let many of these young guys and even some of the older ones who have been out of it for awhile roam around without a tight leash)  

When you refer to Cpl's do you mean the actual 5+ year individuals or the guys who finished their PEP but are still technically Pte's with Cpl rank?  It is kind of hard to tell now-a-days.  As for the problems with the "basics", that seems to be a common occurrence at most bases.  

At least if a PEP is being supervised by a Cpl (old or new) it is better then the old horror story that has been told too many times and may be an urban legend. :dontpanic:  


:warstory:'New QL3 arrives for the first day of duty, Shift IC says', "here is your partol car, here is a map of the base,    go patrol."  
(I never experienced this first hand but have heard it passed 'word or mouth' from too many MP's to quote)


So is it an Urban Legend??   :-\  
"Anyone, Anyone,  Bueller............?"

 

[canadianblue]

Well, I've gotta question, on my application I put down 15 Military Police Company for the unit I am applying to. However on the other part, they gave me three choices, and I put down Infantry as one of my choices. From what I've heard that basically means that I'm going to get into the Loyal Edmonton Regiment. Is this true?

I've also got a question, about the reserves if I were to go into the reserves as an MP, and then later on found that I would prefer Infantry, then is their any possibility of changing trades. Right now I'm split between whether or not I would want to do infantry or military police.

 

[S McKee]

When you refer to Cpl's do you mean the actual 5+ year individuals or the guys who finished their PEP but are still technically Pte's with Cpl rank?   It is kind of hard to tell now-a-days.   As for the problems with the "basics", that seems to be a common occurrence at most bases.


At least if a PEP is being supervised by a Cpl (old or new) it is better then the old horror story that has been told too many times and may be an urban legend. :dontpanic:  


:warstory:'New QL3 arrives for the first day of duty, Shift IC says', "here is your partol car, here is a map of the base,    go patrol."  
(I never experienced this first hand but have heard it passed 'word or mouth' from too many MP's to quote)


So is it an Urban Legend??   :-\
"Anyone, Anyone,   Bueller............?"

No I'm talking about the PEPs, are there any TQ 5 Cpls out there? The scary part is they can be merited after the requisite time in rank. Seven year Sgts. I shiver at the thought. J

 

[Poppa]

You wore a browing and a batton in Canada on Patrol Really.

I call BS on that one.  Maybe over seas while fullfilling your duties. 

Call BS all you want. Used to be common practice esp in Matawa plains late 80's early 90's...And that used to be when our training was even less than it is now.

You don't like Res wearing Red hats...too bad. It's our branch identifier.

For someone who starts out saying they don't want to bad mouth the Res thats what it seems like you're doing.
Our only role isn't supporting the regs over seas.

For those of you wondering why your Coy's don't send you on the reg 3's think about this. Who do you think would pay for this. The unit. I don't know what it'd cost...lets say 15k-20k for salary and R&Q. Then once done the unit would have to send the troop on the PEP..another 6 months  spec pay to boot.
Now we have a fully qualified MP...what do you think would happen..dollars to doughnuts...jump to the regs
the Coy has lost money...a good troop (because we would only send our best) and soldier days during the past year.

Reg trg is not the answer for us. I've mentioned my ideas in the past.
Let's discuss this ..I'm nowhere near as confrontational as I've been in the past. I've mellowed like a good scotch

 

[MILPO]

Powers of arrest fall under the Security Guard part of the NDA or Sec 494 of the CC.   Last time I worked with the Regs I was carrying a browing and a baton.   We were going to carry OC but again the Res. Side of the house doesn't know how long a real use of force course is and they didn't book it properly.

In order to carry a baton and OC spray, in the private or civilian sector, you would have to be licenced under the provincial ministry to carry it, but then again there may be exceptions under the NDA that allow it, but i can't seem to find it.

Just to throw this out there, why not have res. trained to do the above if they are interested? I'm sure with the proper training and support, it could be a means of introducing reg. MP hopefuls to more aspects of the job and some sort of inkling as to what to expect while on duty...

Use of force courses can vary and don't tend to run very long, but if your res. unit where to check with local law enforcement for programs(or in-house military use of force trainers) then there should be no problem obtaining a course.   I don't think OC can be carried without peace officer status...exceptions would be, for example, special constables acting as peace officers in the course of their duties.

 

[Dissident]

Sorry if I sound confused and slightly astonished here but are you admitting that when your Coy ran it's own QL3 that they passed people who did not meet the standard?  Also, I'm really, really unsure of how this person was going to make the Res MP look bad, even if their ability to perform certain MP specific tasks were considered below par.  

I don't feel it is appropriate for me to comment further on the shortcomings of another member. Especially on a public forum like this. If this really matters to you, PM me, or take the time to contact the individual.

How is this time spent on BMQ and SQ relevant to this?

Most of what you learn on BMQ SQ is not relevant to police duties. But some of the physical training, weapons handling and disciple is something that is thaugh on the police course I know about.

From the Oxford Dictionary:  "Standard - A definite level of excellence, attainment, wealth, or the like, or a definite degree of any quality, viewed as a prescribed object of endeavour or as the measure of what is adequate for some purpose."  In this instance the standard IS the 6 month long QL3.

Again, I don't understand why it has to be the exact same course. Why can't it be the same material covered, but over a different time format?

If this was true, don't you think we would have shortened our QL3 by half?  Especially back when we were so far below the PML we were paying people to get back in?  You might be interested to know that unlike most Police forces, our training was subject to extensive independent scrutiny via the Dickson and Belzile reviews.

I have seen things make even less sense in the army, especially after a review, or a comission. Mind you, I've only been in for 2 years...

Only when you desire to fulfil the Police Ops function.  You want to come out Rte signing, doing some TC and sitting at Gate W7A doing access control I'm more than happy to have you along.

Great, but we are still sent overseas, often as partners to a reg force MP.

And who then is legally responsible if something goes wrong while doing said handcuffing, searching and "handling"?  Please do some research on this one before answering.

I wont do research on this. But I will tell you that I don't see why a reserve MP could not be help personnaly responsible, if he has the training and is held under the MP code of conduct, credentials or not.

Who says we don't trust you?  I'll be quite frank, I would be more wary of a partially trained Reservist than one who had no training at all.

I understand your reservations. But I don't agree.

Unfortunately on this specific topic what you're seeing here is an anomoly

Anomaly? I hope you are ready to have this argument more and more in the next little while.

While the idea of an "auxiliary MP" may seem appealing and may be workable in some situations in Canada, it doesn't solve the issue of what to do with Reserve MPs who go overseas.  As I stated before, there are some specific instances when they are employable without impacting on the Reg Force MPs but once you push them into positions other than those, it becomes a problem.  As soon as the position becomes one where Police Ops are conducted you need someone with Sec 156 and in case you're wondering, NDHQ doesn't look at it and go "OK, we need 15 MPs to do these tasks but we'll bump that number up to 18-19 so they can add 3-4 reservists to meet the 20-25% quota".  Each tour has a strictly controlled maximum manning level which cannot be exceeded and these positions are fought over quite intensely so even if the desire was there to add some â Å“freebieâ ? MP positions it's just not going to happen.  So now I'm wondering, how are these 3-4 Res MPs â Å“helping us outâ ??

Again, you seem to be missing the point. Reservist will always be needed at one time or another. Maybe not at the moment, but I bet that won't last that long. Maybe its inconvenient to send reservist at the moment. But lets say we don't work out these issues now, and we only send reg force MP's overseas. The reserve ends up being a whole lot weaker for it. Then when you really need us, we have no one that has either the training or the experience.

 

[MILPO]

Regarding the "handcuffing, search and handling" comment, if you have effected an arrest for a criminal offence as a citizen under sec. 494 of the crim. code, you are not required to search, as you are obligated to turn over the detainee to the police, who will then in turn conduct the search upon arrival provided you haven't already done so. You are allowed to use as much force as necessary to effect the arrest, therefore if you haven't used any unreasonable force to effect the arrest, then your "handling" of the detainee will be justified.... Personally, I always search upon an arrest, to ensure the safety of myself and fellow officers until the detainee is handed over to the muni. police, which could take hours in some circumstances. From finding crack pipes in obscure places on a person to drugs and prohibited weapons, if you are equipped and trained to perform the search, then go to town.

Now if the res. MP is afforded Peace Officer status, than your powers come from sec. 495 crim. code, Peace Officer powers of arrest then you may search and so on, and so on, and so on.....

 

[Lawrence]

You wore a browing and a batton in Canada on Patrol Really.

I call BS on that one.  Maybe over seas while fullfilling your duties. 

When was the last time you used SAMPIS, or did police report?

Baton/Browning with duty gear in Cold Lake for the Air Show.  Unfortunately my Reg Force Partner and I were put in a MILCOT for the weekend so I didnt get the change to use SAMPIS, although other members of my unit had that opportunity.

 

[AndrewD83]

Stirling: I was in the same position as you a few months back.  I applied for the Military Police trade 14 weeks before I graduated from post secondary.  I wrote out the application, sent away the three bulky reference packages to my previous employers only to find out that my application would not be processed until they see my criminology diploma.

Obviously I can see the reason why they wouldn't touch my application without my seeing my criminology diploma first...if they did that for everyone then they would have much more MP applications hanging around waiting for the applicants to show their one piece of very expensive diploma! 

Good luck....it is well worth the wait.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

You don't like Res wearing Red hats...too bad. It's our branch identifier

really i though the thunder chicken was the branch identifier?  But then things must have changed since the 80's and 90's.

Your right reg force training is not the way to go. 

You will have to explain how your job is not to just augment the field units when deployed wether it been within Canada or outside of it.  Or on an ex.  Cause i really can't think of what else you guys do not a slam but a question.

Baton/Browning with duty gear in Cold Lake for the Air Show.  Unfortunately my Reg Force Partner and I were put in a MILCOT for the weekend so I didnt get the change to use SAMPIS, although other members of my unit had that opportunity.

Again this is not patrol work the browing is not for patrol work.  You were on specail duty and had to have a reg force partner.  I doubt other members of your unit got to actually use SAMPIS as much as see it.  Where you in OPD's or where you in CADPAT?

 

[Kurhaus]

In regard to Army Transformation from the MP side of the house, anyone have any idea if the Reserves will be effected as well?  I know the PM's conference discussing these matters and others should be concluding today.

 

[garb811]

Good question.  It might make this whole thread a moot point.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Arguing is never a moot point it can be educational as long it is more then name calling and bashing.  ;D

It opens people up that otherwise never would say a word. 

I am sure all kinds of crazy stuff will be brought out of this PM meeting in the lovely Cornwall.  But you have to remember she is leaving soon so what ever comes out may never come into effect.  Just my thoughts but you all know what happens when a head shed change comes, out come the brooms to sweep things away (in some cases).

 

[Lawrence]

You will have to explain how your job is not to just augment the field units when deployed wether it been within Canada or outside of it.  Or on an ex.  Cause i really can't think of what else you guys do not a slam but a question.

Baton/Browning with duty gear in Cold Lake for the Air Show.  Unfortunately my Reg Force Partner and I were put in a MILCOT for the weekend so I didnt get the change to use SAMPIS, although other members of my unit had that opportunity.

Again this is not patrol work the browing is not for patrol work.  You were on specail duty and had to have a reg force partner.  I doubt other members of your unit got to actually use SAMPIS as much as see it.  Where you in OPD's or where you in CADPAT?

Your right I was with my Reg Force partner.  From what I understand our guys were running plates and all that kinda good stuff.  We were dressed in CADPAT as the branch wont allow us to wear OPD's.  That being said there were several pairings of just Res MP's walkin around all gunned up.

 

[garb811]

Egads...where to start...

Powers of arrest fall under the Security Guard part of the NDA or Sec 494 of the CC.

That Security guard clause if for weapons and vault guards not Patrols.

Err...anyone want to point me out the "part" or "clause" of the NDA which allows you to arrest someone as a Security Guard or has anything to do with weapons and vault guards?

They a) have no powers of arrest

Really?!   You might want to read Sect 155 of the NDA.   Reserve MP have the same authority to arrest as any other CF member at home and abroad in relation to Service Offences.   CCofC has already been covered so...

I also have issues with them wearing red berets in Canada and that bugs me (personally). They are not the policing authourity and have no such powers.

Are you implying that the Red Beret is a visible symbol of the authority derived from Sec 156?   If so, you might want to rethink that one because when someone has their credentials withdrawn pending an investigation and decision (if required) by the MPCRB you don't see them heading over to stores to draw a green beret and you would think that when the Branch went to OPD they would have ensured that ALL MP, no matter what the element, had that as their headdress.   Take a read of the Dress Regs and see what it has to say, I'm 99% sure that there is no mention of having to be appointed "Military Police" IAW Sect 156 is a requirement to wear the Red Beret, simply to be a MP in the Army DEU.   Also, I am more than happy to point out that I have never had a problem with getting a Reserve MP to wear their headdress, and with pride.   Can't say the same about Reg Force MPs, quite a few of whom seem to feel that head dress is optional in OPD.

Res MP's are not specially appointed personal under either the NDA or CC of C.

But then again, neither are Reg Force MPs.   We are, however, appointed "Military Police".   For the record, I do know at least one Army Res MP who is appointed "Military Police" under Sect 156.

In order to carry a baton and OC spray, in the private or civilian sector, you would have to be licenced under the provincial ministry to carry it, but then again there may be exceptions under the NDA that allow it, but i can't seem to find it.

It's not in the NDA.   As a Federal body we are not bound by Provincial Statutes or Regulations.   As an example, back when most Police Acts had the .38 as the mandated weapon of Police, we (well at least the males) were carrying 9mm Brownings.

I don't feel it is appropriate for me to comment further on the shortcomings of another member. Especially on a public forum like this.

Sorry if it seemed like I was fishing but the statement was rhetorical.   I'm not even sure we're talking about the same individual.

Most of what you learn on BMQ SQ is not relevant to police duties.

So why would it be relevant to include that training when discussing MP specific training?   BMQ and SQ teach you how to be a soldier, civie cops don't need to learn how to be a civie...I hope.

Again, I don't understand why it has to be the exact same course. Why can't it be the same material covered, but over a different time format?

Let me try this from another angle.   Say I want to earn a BA from UBC but I have a wife and kid to support, dog, cats, car payment, house payment etc so there's no way I can go as a full-time student, I need to keep a regular job to pay the bills.   I can't go to UBC and say "Hey, how about you grant me a BA with only 1/2 the course work 'cause I really can't go 3-4 years without an income".   UBC needs to protect the integrity and standard of their Degree so they are going to refuse but will offer the opportunity to work my way through the course load at nights etc.   At the end of the 10-12 years it will take me, I have a degree which is to the same standard as the guy who went full-time.   Unfortunately for you guys, in the CF the standard to perform Police Ops is the 6 month Reg Force course so you can't take and chop out 50% of the course work and then say you've been trained to the same standard.   As I said previously, we need people fully qualified to perform the full-spectrum of Police Ops overseas, and in Canada for that matter, particularly if there is going to be a politically imposed quota of 20-25% Reservists on each tour due to the legal and professional liability issues we face in the course of conducting Police Ops duties.   While it is simple to say "Well, just train us part way and employ us as Auxiliaries like the civie Police do", unless you are trained to the Reg Force standard to perform the Police Ops function you might as well be untrained because at the end of the day after you've had the fun of assisting at whatever files your partner picks up that day, it is going to be your Reg Force partner who gets to do the unglamorous stuff like sitting in front of the SAMPIS terminal for 5 hours typing away while you've already had your two beer and headed off to bed.  Additionally partial training actually increases your, and the CFs, legal liability if something does go wrong.  You want to come along as the HQ Cpl or the Security and Ident Op, fill your boots but as soon as you get put into a position other than these, you're taking away my ability to provide the Police Ops service the Commander expects and demands for the vast majority of the tour.

I wont do research on this. But I will tell you that I don't see why a reserve MP could not be help personnaly responsible, if he has the training and is held under the MP code of conduct, credentials or not.

Holy smokes, here we are having a frank discussion giving you detailed and referenced points on why things can't...or at least shouldn't...happen the way you want them to and you respond with something like this?   Take the time to do some reading, take the time to do some research, take the time to listen to other peoples opinion and you'll be able to formulate a coherent and rational response which just might win us over to your way of thinking.   Now if it because you can't do research as opposed to just won't, that's another story.  I'll give a partial answer and just point out that while you don't count on your Reserve MP employment to pay the bills, us Reg Force guys can't simply go back to our "real" job when PS rips us apart and the MPCRB has our badge in their hand for something a Reserve MP under our direct supervision did.

Anomaly? I hope you are ready to have this argument more and more in the next little while.

I sure hope so but hopefully it'll be more than the tired old rhetoric we're seeing here.  It has been good research practice though.

I am sure all kinds of crazy stuff will be brought out of this PM meeting in the lovely Cornwall.   But you have to remember she is leaving soon so what ever comes out may never come into effect.   Just my thoughts but you all know what happens when a head shed change comes, out come the brooms to sweep things away (in some cases).

Spoken like someone who didn't survive the previous PM's business.   Things in the last 4 years have been nothing but gravy and nothing radical has happened within the Branch from my point of view but maybe you see it differently.

I finished my policing diploma two years ago have worked for UofA 5-0 and West Edmonton Mall Security(Ha ya I'm a rent a cop but you should see the fun the bars bring me).   Anyways long story short my goal in life is to be a member of the Edmonton Police Service.   Actually I just want to be a cop....quite frankly I'm getting to the point in the game where I'll go anywhere.

West Ed still paying good?   Seeing where this thread has gone to I just might be looking for a reference from you...

BTW folks, spell checker is our friend.  While a typo here and there isn't an issue, some of the stuff being posted is a bit hard to read.

 

[Dissident]

First, I should've said that I wont do research right now. I mentioned before that I am new and as such I can not rely on the same pool of knowledge some of  you people have. Even if I did extensive research, I might not be able to grasp all the information and digest it in a usable manner.

Going back to your UBC degree analogy. We are not looking to get the same degree. We are looking to get something that might not be as prestigious, or even get an actual degree. What I want is all the training necessary to do the job. Instead of doing a BA in 4 years, I want to do it in 8 years, part time. As far as I am concerned, most universities accept this type of arrangement, why can't you?

As a rule, we don't send anyone on tour until they are at least QL5 qualified, meaning somewhere between 3 to 5 years of service. I don't see why we can't teach all the material of a reg force QL3 over that period of time, plus refreshers, and all being accepted as on par training by CFMPA. Add a few call outs for garrison augmentation and we would have reservist pretty damn near reg force standard.

More later, I have to go.