The Mess

[Kilted]

I know on the reserve side of things messes are occasionally used for other things due to space restrictions. However, they are generally still treated as a mess, for example removal of headdress. They are often used as a sleeping area for staff for weekend courses. Although, there are those who for some reason think that sleeping in the mess is one of the seven deadly sins.

Also, how long till the government decides to make all messes dry in order to combat sexual misconduct?

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is definitely a place for the all-ranks social facility, and I think this could usually be provided by the CANEX operated restaurant/pub that one finds on many (most?) major bases ... except many such locations are too small, too focused around their bars, and/or lack event rooms that can be booked for DwDs or sub-sub unit socials.

The old Bleachers location at CFB Borden is reopening as something new, I think its a pasta joint.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The problem is that many think beer is the purpose of the mess because it had been central for so long. The reality is that beer was a means. The purpose of the mess is social interaction, group cohesion, cross-group cohesion, and identity building.

Maybe it needs to be redefined from first principles, but it does need to exist.

I don't disagree at all; I've been a member of some messes, including mixed-rank and all-ranks messes, that "worked" to strengthen the team and I've been in a couple that didn't, that seemed to exist for the benefit of the the senior member present. I still wonder if "we need" a downtown club which will beg used, primarily, by retired officer and by senior officers hosting various groups or VIPs.

Having said that, when I was in my second, post military career, I used the Army Officers' Mess a lot for "business" entertaining - it was all above board, I didn't sneak in a dozen guests for Friday lunch, I reserved a small dining room and my Board paid for extra staff and so on and I regarded, still reward, that as a valid use of the institution.

I suspect that NDHQ/Carling is too big for one, single all ranks mess but I wonder if they couldn't build a social and recreation club with, say, some common elements and there (Offrs, WOs & Sgts, Jr Ranks) annexes. My memory is drifting back to a USN centre at a place called Turtle Bay in Hawaii.

 

[dimsum]

Update:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/defence-minister-alcohol-military-messes-sexual-misconduct-1.7059932

 

[markppcli]

Probably because he was. Ore than a little embarrassed when he told a reporter yesterday that it wasn’t true we all had to be a member of the mess.

I live in a fairly isolated post. I’ve been to my mess exactly three times. I would have loved to go in more, especially when I first moved here, but the hours of 3-6 pm Wednesday and Thursday doesn’t jive with someone who’s spouse also has a job. It’s a pity, as somewhere to meet other people your age, have a chin wag, and socialize outside of your specific co workers is probably missed. That said if we close them all down I don’t think many people will really care too much.

 

[dimsum]

Probably because he was. Ore than a little embarrassed when he told a reporter yesterday that it wasn’t true we all had to be a member of the mess.

I live in a fairly isolated post. I’ve been to my mess exactly three times. I would have loved to go in more, especially when I first moved here, but the hours of 3-6 pm Wednesday and Thursday doesn’t jive with someone who’s spouse also has a job. It’s a pity, as somewhere to meet other people your age, have a chin wag, and socialize outside of your specific co workers is probably missed. That said if we close them all down I don’t think many people will really care too much.

That is such a weird set of opening times.

If we were to close them down, really the only ones who would care are folks at sea. The Mess is literally where they eat and if alcohol sales are stopped, then we’re like the USN with dry ships. And guess how well that goes at foreign ports.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That is such a weird set of opening times.

If we were to close them down, really the only ones who would care are folks at sea. The Mess is literally where they eat and if alcohol sales are stopped, then we’re like the USN with dry ships. And guess how well that goes at foreign ports.

When posted to a ship, like now, it's the only time I don't mind paying mess dues.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sounds like they are going to try tie sexual assault to drinking in general and in the mess specifically. The messes went on life support when they were taken over by NPF. A liberal staged purge will pull the life support plug.

I think they're dead anyway. It's just a slow agonizing death that has advanced over the years.

 

[markppcli]

That is such a weird set of opening times.

If we were to close them down, really the only ones who would care are folks at sea. The Mess is literally where they eat and if alcohol sales are stopped, then we’re like the USN with dry ships. And guess how well that goes at foreign ports.

Hard to staff them I guess? Of course the suggestion that they pay staff more to attract more staff is absurd.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Someone doesn't like something, so no-one should have it. Mantra of the times. The specific problem that ought to be solved is making the bar operation pay for itself. But that principle could be applied to any operation of the mess. If I don't eat junk food, why should I subsidize the dry canteen? If I don't smoke, why should I subsidize a cigarette machine that isn't profitable (probably an obsolete whinge, now).

 

[rmc_wannabe]

This will change very little. If they kill the mess, troops go off site (and already do) and then its less control than we already do when it comes to drinking and resulting stupidity.

Many times I have seen troops not go to a mess, go to a bar, drink their face off, then head back to the barracks and have a sexual assault or incident occur.

It is not the alcohol committing the sexual assaults, and it certainly is not "mess members" that are committing them; it's individual sexual predators.

Culture can be modified or changed, human nature, not. This is merely CYA for the Department and GoC

 

[OldSolduer]

Hard to staff them I guess? Of course the suggestion that they pay staff more to attract more staff is absurd.

OK so when the earth was cooling we could use soldiers on long term med issues and use them as bartenders etc. Then every day at least in 2VP we sent soldiers to messes very week day to butter toast etc.. We tried to send guys whose MELs precluded them from training but allowed them to fulfill this function. Now I do not remember when but the rules were changed to "you cannot employ soldiers as mess staff" or something like that.

 

[kratz]

Messes are more than just a bar. As PMC, I have successfully argued to reopen a mess space, sans bar IAW punishment.

Units / bases utilize messes as flex spaces for meetings, townhalls, training ect...if these operations are closed, that option adds another restriction to CAF operations.

I know Halifax continues to negotiate for a new 4-sheet hockey rink in Windsor park, the sticking point is the requirement for priority use of one pad, as needed.

NPF and messes continues to evolve and benefit members. Bars are but are but one potion of the equation.

 

[Edward Campbell]

200 years ago messes only existed on the "frontiers:" in places like Canada and India. British officers, sergeants and soldiers in Britain did not have messes; they didn't need 'em - they had clubs and taverns that grew up around garrisons. Messes were needed in places like Fort Henry in Kingston because they were small and remote. In fact the officers's mess in First Henry was, mainly, for the few artillery and engineer officers who lived there; the officers of the ifantry until had houses in the small but growing town down near where the Holiday Inn is now.

 

[Furniture]

Hard to staff them I guess? Of course the suggestion that they pay staff more to attract more staff is absurd.

My understanding is that the pay rates are dictated from higher, meaning PSP can't necessarily offer more. I know in Ottawa we struggled to get a Chef for the C&POs because the pay was not high enough for what we were asking of them in a city with lots of options. Same for bartenders, though at least for them some seem to appreciate the zero drama environment.

Messes are more than just a bar. As PMC, I have successfully argued to reopen a mess space, sans bar IAW punishment.

Units / bases utilize messes as flex spaces for meetings, townhalls, training ect...if these operations are closed, that option adds another restriction to CAF operations.

I know Halifax continues to negotiate for a new 4-sheet hockey rink in Windsor park, the sticking point is the requirement for priority use of one pad, as needed.

NPF and messes continues to evolve and benefit members. Bars are but are but one potion of the equation.

That is what we have been struggling with in Ottawa. People see the mess as nothing more than the place they got trashed in as a Pte. They don't see the usefulness of having a giant space downtown for other events.

We are kicking off a gaming day on the third Saturday of every month starting in the new year. People can come down with guests and play board/card games, use the gaming systems we are buying, eat free popcorn, and buy food from the cafeteria at prices half of what any restaurant charges.

 

[dapaterson]

My understanding is that the pay rates are dictated from higher, meaning PSP can't necessarily offer more. I know in Ottawa we struggled to get a Chef for the C&POs because the pay was not high enough for what we were asking of them in a city with lots of options. Same for bartenders, though at least for them some seem to appreciate the zero drama environment.

A room full of Sgts, WOs, POs and CPOs, and zero drama?

 

[Ostrozac]

Sounds like they are going to try tie sexual assault to drinking in general and in the mess specifically. The messes went on life support when they were taken over by NPF. A liberal staged purge will pull the life support plug.

I think they're dead anyway. It's just a slow agonizing death that has advanced over the years.

For an institution that has supposedly been in decline for 20+ years, they still show in the court martial transcripts, so somebody is still using them.

On a more serious note, you’re right, it wouldn’t take much of a nudge on the policy side to close messes down entirely. This would of course, probably not accomplish any reduction in inappropriate/criminal alcohol-related sexual incidents, but would shift such incidents to civilian facilities downtown, thus removing the headline factor of such incidents occurring on bases. Optics over effects?

Come to think of it, defunding barracks/RHUs accomplishes the same sort of thing — when the troops are out of line it’s no longer a crime on a base, it’s a crime in a civilian neighbourhood, which is a slightly better headline. All we need now is for the MilCol report to tell us to educate all our officer cadets at civilian universities — so when they get out of hand the military can blame their misbehaviour on McGill and Concordia.

None of this is beneficial to victims, of course, its purely style over substance — but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In Edinburgh, the Royal Scots Guards have a house, which they share with the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards. They are each others mutual defence and consider each other family. The bottom floor is the bar and upstairs for functions. Apparently, it is the norm. Only a small plaque at the door identifies it. Otherwise it blends into the neighborhood. The RSDG have a pub just outside the castle gate on the Royal Mile, which the owner and the locals consider the gathering place for the Regiment. Maybe d&b could add something about the use of houses as regimental retreats.

 

[markppcli]

OK so when the earth was cooling we could use soldiers on long term med issues and use them as bartenders etc. Then every day at least in 2VP we sent soldiers to messes very week day to butter toast etc.. We tried to send guys whose MELs precluded them from training but allowed them to fulfill this function. Now I do not remember when but the rules were changed to "you cannot employ soldiers as mess staff" or something like that.

Yes we generally frown on having soldier wait of the officers and SNCOs as a rule now.

 

[Rd651]

Yes we generally frown on having soldier wait of the officers and SNCOs as a rule now.

100% agree, when I was in Pet, early 90s the Regt used to send Sprs to the SNCO mess to butter toast daily, (we called the duty "toast tech") serve coffee, etc during stand easy / break, well I tell you this the people(SNCOs) who ate that toast, freshly buttered, by the troops, should NOT have eaten the toast....lol , Anyway they all gobbled it up, every day....good times!! Lol