The Mess

[Gunplumber]

Does anyone have any ideas of how I can go about finding ways of quitting a Mess permanently? I know in the past that you HAD to belong to a mess and I understand that but this is the modern era now and I am not quite sure they should be making it mandatory anymore.

The reason I am asking this is because our mess dues are doubling this year, our mess is losing money by the way they are doing things. The Base CO is saying who the PMC is, there is no vote by the mess on this. People in the mess committee are buying items they want with no votes ($4000 item). The mess is only open every 2 weeks etc. It is getting to be a waste of money for me as I really dont go anymore as it is no fun and it is the same for a bunch of my coworkers.

 

[Remius]

Does anyone have any ideas of how I can go about finding ways of quitting a Mess permanently? I know in the past that you HAD to belong to a mess and I understand that but this is the modern era now and I am not quite sure they should be making it mandatory anymore.

The reason I am asking this is because our mess dues are doubling this year, our mess is losing money by the way they are doing things. The Base CO is saying who the PMC is, there is no vote by the mess on this. People in the mess committee are buying items they want with no votes ($4000 item). The mess is only open every 2 weeks etc. It is getting to be a waste of money for me as I really dont go anymore as it is no fun and it is the same for a bunch of my coworkers.

Quit the CAF or get posted somewhere else is the only way to leave a particular mess.

I’m pretty sure there is no mechanism to just up and quit a mess.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Does anyone have any ideas of how I can go about finding ways of quitting a Mess permanently? I know in the past that you HAD to belong to a mess and I understand that but this is the modern era now and I am not quite sure they should be making it mandatory anymore.

The reason I am asking this is because our mess dues are doubling this year, our mess is losing money by the way they are doing things. The Base CO is saying who the PMC is, there is no vote by the mess on this. People in the mess committee are buying items they want with no votes ($4000 item). The mess is only open every 2 weeks etc. It is getting to be a waste of money for me as I really dont go anymore as it is no fun and it is the same for a bunch of my coworkers.

Give the military police a call if you think theft is happening.

If they're doubling the mess dues yet only open every two weeks that also sounds like a money scam, bring that to the MPs attention as well.

If that doesn't work email Mercedes Stephenson.

 

[Remius]

Before going the MP route…

Have you been attending mess meetings?

Ask for the minutes of the last 4 meetings. You are entitled to those. Then check that they had quorum to enact those motions.

Also, get a copy of the mess constitution to see what they can and can’t do.

If there are any procedural issues that were not followed challenge it at the next meeting.

Also messes are overseen by psp. Find out who the rep is and bring up your concerns.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Does anyone have any ideas of how I can go about finding ways of quitting a Mess permanently? I know in the past that you HAD to belong to a mess and I understand that but this is the modern era now and I am not quite sure they should be making it mandatory anymore.

The reason I am asking this is because our mess dues are doubling this year, our mess is losing money by the way they are doing things. The Base CO is saying who the PMC is, there is no vote by the mess on this. People in the mess committee are buying items they want with no votes ($4000 item). The mess is only open every 2 weeks etc. It is getting to be a waste of money for me as I really dont go anymore as it is no fun and it is the same for a bunch of my coworkers.

Wait, you're a member of my old Mess?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Does anyone have any ideas of how I can go about finding ways of quitting a Mess permanently? I know in the past that you HAD to belong to a mess and I understand that but this is the modern era now and I am not quite sure they should be making it mandatory anymore.

That involves opening up the NDA and K R&Os to revise the part about it being mandatory to belong to a mess.

@FJAG can clarify, but it has been explained to me that the "mess" in legal terms also factors in CFMWS, which is a nice little loophole around the Income Tax Act section on "taxable benefits." So yes, we are forced to join the "mess" as an organization IOT avoid having to pay for the gym and such out of pocket.

The reason I am asking this is because our mess dues are doubling this year, our mess is losing money by the way they are doing things.

Take a look around. Inflation is everywhere, including in the cost to operate a mess. Bar stock costs more, food costs more, wages for your mess staff costs more. Keeping dues set at 1999 amounts will lead to hemorrhaging of money faster than a lack of turn out at events.

The Base CO is saying who the PMC is, there is no vote by the mess on this.

This appointment process is common place. When I was appointed VPMC at a previous mess, I was interviewed by the Base Comd, Mess Manager, PMC, and a voting member chosen at random. If folks aren't happy with who is filling the roles, have more folks apply to the position and get them to interview. It helps prevent the lunatics from getting hold of the asylum.

People in the mess committee are buying items they want with no votes ($4000 item).

Read your mess constitution. What is the voting limit on purchases? We're there any breaches of the NPP Policies?

If it's legal, then sucks to suck. Join the Mess committee and put your input. Better yet, introduce a motion at your next GMM to make all purchases beholden to a quorum vote.

The mess is only open every 2 weeks etc. It is getting to be a waste of money for me as I really dont go anymore as it is no fun and it is the same for a bunch of my coworkers.

Again, see above ref CFMWS. Again, see above with cost of operation due to inflation. If the cost of operating is greater than the revenue... it's infeasible to have the mess open more frequently than it currently is. Messes are feast or famine based on revenue, staffing, as well as attendance. If you want to get your money's worth, go out to events and get involved to improve the mess.

A complaint without a suggestion is whining.

 

[FJAG]

@FJAG can clarify, but it has been explained to me that the "mess" in legal terms also factors in CFMWS, which is a nice little loophole around the Income Tax Act section on "taxable benefits." So yes, we are forced to join the "mess" as an organization IOT avoid having to pay for the gym and such out of pocket.

I'm way too long out of the system to know what the detailed rationale is or rules are anymore.

Remember I come from the old 1960s crowd where messes were part of our British Army culture and fulfilled a key component of social life on bases in fairly isolated locations at a reasonable prices as both the facilities and staff were provided by the government. That government support has eroded to the point where it's hard to see the benefits, especially in the middle of urban centres such as Ottawa. I worked in Ottawa for 3 years on Class B int e '00s and went to the mess on only 5 occasions - when there were functions that required attending. That differed greatly from my experience in Shilo and Petawawa as a junior officer where the mess was the centre of my social life (and, for two years, my home).

Mess executive quality varies greatly and I can only echo what @rmc_wannabe says. If you are dissatisfied with what's going on then educate yourself on the process and become involved. In my experience most members on mess executives don't want to be there and would be happy to be replaced by someone who does want to be.

 

[OldSolduer]

Does anyone have any ideas of how I can go about finding ways of quitting a Mess permanently? I know in the past that you HAD to belong to a mess and I understand that but this is the modern era now and I am not quite sure they should be making it mandatory anymore.

The reason I am asking this is because our mess dues are doubling this year, our mess is losing money by the way they are doing things. The Base CO is saying who the PMC is, there is no vote by the mess on this. People in the mess committee are buying items they want with no votes ($4000 item). The mess is only open every 2 weeks etc. It is getting to be a waste of money for me as I really dont go anymore as it is no fun and it is the same for a bunch of my coworkers.

IIRC you have to belong to "a" mess not the unit one.

You don't vote the PMC in - that is an appointment by the CO.

There are spending limits and if these are being ignored.....then its time for an investigation.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm pretty sure there's a fairly extensive thread on the subject around here somewhere already.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Spending limits, voting process to authorize spending etc are all supposed to be outlined in the mess constitution as well, and the ones I've seen generally have some kind of oversight requirement by the base CO or similar, so don't forget to ask to see the current constitution when you ask for mess minutes.

Possible that it's being run poorly but within the rules, if the rules aren't properly done, but I think votes on spending significant money, changes to mess dues etc are usually things required to be voted upon with a quorum, so they may be spending money without proper authorization.

 

[Kilted]

IIRC you have to belong to "a" mess not the unit one.

You don't vote the PMC in - that is an appointment by the CO.

There are spending limits and if these are being ignored.....then its time for an investigation.

I don't know where you are, but maybe you could find a militia one. Potentially cheaper with a lot more culture.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I don't know where you are, but maybe you could find a militia one. Potentially cheaper with a lot more culture.

https://cfmws.ca/CFMWS/media/images/documents/8.0%20About%20Us/Resources%20for%20Messes/English/PSP-Policy-Manual-EN-7-Nov-2022.pdf

Memberships

11. Every member shall belong to a mess appropriate to their rank. When, for valid reasons, the individual wishes to belong to a mess appropriate to their rank that is other than the one established to serve the member's unit, the member may do so with the approval of the losing unit CO concerned.

And a bunch of other related references

CFMWS - Canadian Forces Morale and Welfare Services

Canadian Forces Morale and Welfare Services (CFMWS) is a not-for-profit social enterprise. We help Canadian Armed Forces members, Veterans and their families build self-reliance, resilience and readiness. Their mental, social/familial, physical and financial wellbeing is our overarching priority.

cfmws.ca

 

[daftandbarmy]

I don't know where you are, but maybe you could find a militia one. Potentially cheaper with a lot more culture.

And by culture you mean...

 

[Kilted]

And by culture you mean...

That is 2/3 wrong and 2/3 correct.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Some Reserve Unit messes have people from present serving to past serving members but also members of the general public who like to support the local unit. Some are real characters and a lot of fun at mess dinners and functions. Others are very boring people.
Some messes can be very boring even on the Reg force side of the house. But if you have a problem with the mess join the committee and help make the changes to make it better, because if you are having issues others might have the same issues

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm pretty sure there's a fairly extensive thread on the subject around here somewhere already.

Me, too ... but I couldn't find it so, some news for folks in the National Capital (from an E-maIl I received from the Army Officers Mess):

-----

Dear AOM Membership,

NCR Combined Officer’s Mess

As many of you may know, both the RCAF Mess and the RCN Mess buildings have been closed for some time and the decision has now been made to keep them closed due to the costs associated with getting them reopened. Following guidance from the Commander CFSG(O-G), the three officer messes in the NCR (Airforce, Army, and Navy) will be amalgamated into the NCR Combined Officers’ Mess as of 1 April 2024 with the AOM building being the new home for all officers. Over the past few months, the executive committees of all messes have been meeting, working towards understanding and planning the way ahead for the combined mess. I can assure you all that thorough analysis and collaboration is ongoing, with the guidance of CFMWS, to ensure due consideration is happening concerning every aspect of the amalgamation. For example (but not limited to):

New Executive Committee Design
New Constitution
Budgets
Building plan (artifacts)
Mess dues
Events/Calendar

The first General Mess Meeting (GMM) for the new combined officer’s mess will be held on 15 Feb 2024 where many of your questions will be able to be addressed. I ask for your patience as we are still trying to figure out the details and not in a position to provide more currently.

-----
If a Mod knows a better place for this please move it there.

 

[dapaterson]

Long overdue.

Mind you, with most CAF members now either in Gatineau or at the Carling campus, the question of why the mess is downtown needs asking...

 

[Furniture]

Long overdue.

Mind you, with most CAF members now either in Gatineau or at the Carling campus, the question of why the mess is downtown needs asking...

I'm part of the NDHQ C&PO's Mess Committee, and we have been briefed on some of the common issues.

Nothing was put into the plan for Carling, so there is no space or licencing for a mess out there. The way the food services contract for Carling was done the messes are not allowed to have food service out there on their own. They must go through the contractor for food, which is significantly more expensive. Also, there are still many people working and living in areas other than Kanata, so having a centralized location for the mess still makes the most sense.

The real issue is, what can the messes do to get people interested in leaving the comfort of their homes? Messes thrived before people could sit on their couch and have access to the entire internet's distractions.

 

[dimsum]

I'm part of the NDHQ C&PO's Mess Committee, and we have been briefed on some of the common issues.

Nothing was put into the plan for Carling, so there is no space or licencing for a mess out there. The way the food services contract for Carling was done the messes are not allowed to have food service out there on their own. They must go through the contractor for food, which is significantly more expensive. Also, there are still many people working and living in areas other than Kanata, so having a centralized location for the mess still makes the most sense.

The real issue is, what can the messes do to get people interested in leaving the comfort of their homes? Messes thrived before people could sit on their couch and have access to the entire internet's distractions.

The RCAF O Mess had a lot of virtual events, like virtual wine tasting (you picked up the kit and went on Zoom with a few friends). They also had take-home dinners that you heated up at home.

They occasionally had in-person events too but aside from the beer tasting, I wasn’t able to attend them.

I think that the issue isn’t getting people to leave, it’s how to get them downtown. If there were parking chits (free parking at the City Hall lot, for example) on weekend events, or taxi/Uber reimbursement so they don’t need to drive downtown at all, that would help. Maybe move some events to Saturdays or Sundays, rather than forcing people to drive from Carling to downtown at rush hour on a Friday.

 

[GR66]

The RCAF O Mess had a lot of virtual events, like virtual wine tasting (you picked up the kit and went on Zoom with a few friends). They also had take-home dinners that you heated up at home.

They occasionally had in-person events too but aside from the beer tasting, I wasn’t able to attend them.

I think that the issue isn’t getting people to leave, it’s how to get them downtown. If there were parking chits (free parking at the City Hall lot, for example) on weekend events, or taxi/Uber reimbursement so they don’t need to drive downtown at all, that would help. Maybe move some events to Saturdays or Sundays, rather than forcing people to drive from Carling to downtown at rush hour on a Friday.

Take the O-Train???



Too soon?