The Merits of the ROTP Program (Split from

[medaid]

I will attest to dapaterson's points. We always need more officers who are experienced and can come down and lend us a hand with things. WE need more Officers...

 

[McG]

Wow, if we could sort this piece out, to include the Second Language piece, and actually provide our people the proper training and education when and where they need it, rather than setting unreasonable expectations, we could be on to something here!

It would be great if we could get there.  The the graduate degree obligatory for those going through Toronto or is it an option?  To me, that seems like the place to achieve that milestone.  If it is required earlier, then establish a mechanism to provide it earlier.  If it is not required earlier, then graduate degrees should not be a factor in merit boards.

I'm waiting for the language trg solution.  The CF has never contributed a second or a penny toward teaching me French, yet I am reminded annually that this will impair my career next to those who have been given months of CF delivered & funded second language training.

To add to my earlier thoughts, RMC would offer an intensive associate's or foundation degree in 18 months to 2 years.  This would be a multi-disciplinary program focusing on critical thinking, militarily relevant sciences, leadership, and all the junk currently stuffed into OPMEs.  Prior to attending RMC, OCdts would have completed their commissioning course at CFOCS.  Once complete the foundation degree, 2Lts would complete environmental and occupational training.  Those belonging to MOS requiring the full bachelor's degree would return to RMC (or a designated Civy U with co-located ROTP Trg Pl/Coy) at the end of environmental training & before occupational training.

After at least a one unit tour, Captains & Majors of other MOS would return to RMC to upgrade to a full bachelor's degree in 18 months to 2 years.  Once again, it would be a multi-disciplinary program designed to focus on military topics while developing critical thinking & communication skills. 

I've often heard "blind leading the blind" comments made about RMC in regards to the significant power & formative role that higher years have over those younger.  This problem would be resolved as the student leadership would now be officers with real world experience.  With the exception of (maybe) a squadron administration officer, these returning officers could also replace the requirement for many of the non-student officers currently posted to RMC.

Finally, those officers identified as suitable for unit command would be sent to complete a graduate degree (either at RMC or CFC).

 

[DVessey]

I'm going to jump into this. Not sure how good of an idea it is... most of the conversations of this type that I've had take place over a few brews at TGIF over summer OJT...

From the get go, my (limited) history/experience:
Applied for ROTP civi U, got accepted for ROTP at RMC - don't regret accepting the offer at all. I got the opportunity to go on an OJT at CFS Alert for a summer, doing work completely unrelated to my job and degree. There are only two officers on station, so it was an all ranks mess - spent a lot of time talking to NCMs.
I also got to do a more regular OJT in Greenwood last summer, learning about all the stuff the WTIS sqn does on an air base. Again, spent lots of time talking to ATIS techs,

....
Unless you want to tell me smuggling booze into the RMC shacks, underage drinking, selling Mil ID's to conterfeitors to make fake ID's and bringing unconscious drunk girls back to the shacks for some 'playtime' equates to 'good officer development'? Bullocks. I'm here getting a degree because thats what I need to do to be an Army Log Officer. If I didn't need to go to school right now, lord love me I'd be gone faster then a chubby kid after a cupcake.

Just my views that I needed to pass on.

Piper: I'm not trying to pick on you, but I've seen a lot of posts where you're picking on RMC, making it sound as if we all get away with murder all the time.
Counterfeit IDs, unconscious drunk girls, etc is obviously unacceptable behaviour. I've heard rumours about these things going on, generally after it was brought to the CoC's attention - by no means am I trying to excuse this behaviour, if anything the punishments for this should be stiffer. But these aren't common occurrences either.
As for the underage drinking, I've got friends in reserves, when they were in at 16, and they drank plenty at mess dinners. Is this horrible and evil? I don't think so. By no means do I encourage underage drinking, but I know that it's going to happen.

Back to the main topic, the merits of the ROTP program.
-Spend time in ranks, THEN go officer.
This is the most common point made. I'll admit it, this argument makes so much sense it hurts. After working with ATIS techs for a summer, I think I would have enjoyed working as one for a few years. But there are problems that I can see with it, mainly: A good NCM does not necessarily a good officer make. I've met many an NCM who was great at their job, the kind of person who looks great on paper, has a good head on their shoulders - prime candidates for promotion, and in the scheme of going through ranks to become an officer, prime candidates to put through as officers. But these same people said they had no interest in going officer - they were quite happy being NCMs.
So do these people get pushed through on the 'officer track'? The obvious answer is to ask them what they want... but from my limited experience with the military, "obvious" has many different definitions.

 

[armyvern]

I'm going to jump into this. Not sure how good of an idea it is... most of the conversations of this type that I've had take place over a few brews at TGIF over summer OJT...

From the get go, my (limited) history/experience:
Applied for ROTP civi U, got accepted for ROTP at RMC - don't regret accepting the offer at all. I got the opportunity to go on an OJT at CFS Alert for a summer, doing work completely unrelated to my job and degree. There are only two officers on station, so it was an all ranks mess - spent a lot of time talking to NCMs.
...

So you hit the Mess -- did you hit the Houses??  >

Valid points on the underage drinking etc bit @ RMC BTW ...

It's not like that never happens at CivU ... I KNOW that I NEVER took a sip of alcohol at Mount Allison as a 17 year old. 

It's kids -- they're young -- in most cases it's the first time away from home living ... kids WILL be kids whether or not it's at RMC or other.

As for underage members drinking in Mess' or at Mess Dinners ... those days are officially long gone by regulation. Whether or not specific Units enforce that regulation is debateable, but they should be.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

... The graduate degree obligatory for those going through Toronto or is it an option? 

The problem is that there are folks who are told they will never get enough points to get high enough on the merit list to see Toronto without a graduate degree, making getting the "Toronto MA" a moot point.  Or so we are told by the same folks that say "improve your SL profile", then, in a later breath, after the counselee asks the counselor for SLT, says "things are too busy right now, you'll have to take care of that on your own".

 

[DVessey]

So you hit the Mess -- did you hit the Houses??  >
...

But of course, happy to have heard that the Houses are being "re-made". Maybe some day I'll go back and visit the Zoo...

 

[armyvern]

But of course, happy to have heard that the Houses are being "re-made". Maybe some day I'll go back and visit the Zoo...

Indeed they are ... I was sent down "The Wheel" a couple of weeks before Christmas (because I made it during my tour there -- so they figured they'd "gift" it to me rather than taking it to the millionaire's dump).

So many t-shirts ... yet only 6 months. I got all the t-shirts. I was a busy girl.