The Merged Thread on Gay/ Homosexual Topics and the CF.

[Scott]

What, is this "No Sense of Humour" on Army.ca day?

Nope. It's no perpetuating ugly stereotypes day and it's actually meant to run ad infinitum.

Take a peek at the quote below. It was posted as the first reply in this thread, advice you chose to ignore. Your post adds nothing.

Just saying.....

If you don't have anything to add for the above question, please do not post...


MILNET.CA MENTOR

I am not entertaining any more questions about this.

 

[Remius]

I think it boils down to personal experience.  I've known both lesbians and gays in the combat arms.  Not a lot but a few.  Also a few who have family members that are homosexual.  I always found it funny that there was more discussion about suspected homosexuals than the ones that were known to be homosexual.  Some guys were just more comfortable knowing than guessing.  That being said I've also heard some pretty nasty homophobic stuff but no more than you would find on civy street.  Hopefully your experience wil be a positive one but i suspect that at some point in your career, you will face challenges.  But no more so than what some women, visible minorities and yes even the white anglo male will also face at times.

 

[vonGarvin]

If I may add to what I posted earlier.  You will indeed need thick skin to be in the army.  That applies to everyone: gay, straight, atheist, religious, white, black etc and so forth.
Some people may be taken aback by open signs of your homosexuality, such as a guy referring to his boyfriend, a woman referring to her wife, etc.  That's normal.  That does not mean that they hate you, will string you up, leave hate letters in your inbox, etc.  It's natural, because, the media notwithstanding, people are naturally xenophobic, and that includes to homosexuals.  My word of advice is this: don't let it get you down and do NOT take it personally.  People will refer to things as being "gay", and guys may call each other "homos".  It's not a slight against you anymore than it's a slight against me when people utter "Jesus Christ!" when they hammer their fingers instead of the nail.

To put that last part in perspective, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic.  Just so you know, there are people of all stripes, shapes, etc in the military.  But there is a reason we all wear the same uniform: to minimise our differences and try to create a homogeneous group.  Just as I don't go around proclaiming the virtues of Catholicism, I simply practice in private, except sundays, when I attend mass. 

Another poster mentioned something about PDA: Public Displays of Affection.  Now, gay, straight, polygamist or otherwise, it's fairly taboo to do so in uniform.  Not entirely verboten, as such (eg: the Base Commander kissing his wife goodbye as she drops him off in the morning), but in general, when in uniform, we are supposed to act as Eunuchs, I suppose.  And yes, I'll freely admit that seeing two guys kissing may turn me off in many ways; however, that in no way would change how I would treat a member of my team who were homosexual.  Having said that, however, once any person joins a "clan" within the military, they will be subjected to insults and jibes.  This is not harrassment, this is just the opposite.  I have been picked on for being a holy roller, for having a big nose, for all sorts of stuff.  But in the end, it is how we interact.  It may seem foreign, in bad taste, or even bordering on harrassment by outsiders, but to us, the members of a "clan" within the military, it's how we bond.

In the end, any and all institutional discrimination is naturally forbidden.  That's not to say that it doesn't occur: it does.  But that's why we have a National Defence Act, because it is, simply put, illegal.  And those who are convicted of it face hefty penalties.  I'm certain that it occurs just as it does in every other institution within our society.  In part, it's part of being human, I suppose.  So, my advice to you is this: forewarning is fairwarning: you will face barbs and some comments may come off as xenophobic to homosexuals.  All your peers will care about is such things as:
Is the guy a good egg?
Can he do his job?
Does he have my back?

If the answer is yes, then they could care less if you are gay, straight, aboriginal, or anything else for that matter.  And if you feel that the barbs are coming on too strongly, then give it back.  If you feel offended that guys are talking about sexual conquests on the weekend, well, then start talking about yours.  You will face a steep road ahead, just as you would anywhere else, but in the end, if they answer "yes" to the three questions above, then it's all gravy.

I hope this helps.

 

[Cat]

My thoughts in general is that as long as you're not hitting on me, we're good and that goes for all genders. I know when I was in St Jean there was a bit of drama going on about the whole gay/straight/bi/purple with pink polkadots etc. It seems to me that the easiest way to avoid drama (irregardless of your gender or sexual orientation) is not to bring it to the office, don't get involved with those in your platoon/squad/section and unless you run into them at the club after hours, leave them alone no matter how cute you think they are.

Hitting on the guy/girl next to you in a foxhole is not a great way to build teamwork...just saying. Also if you feel at anypoint that you are being discriminated against for any reason(short of being a complete pump) there are channels to go through to ensure that it is dealt with quickly and professionally.

 

[davidsonr_91]

I just want to thank everyone who was able to provide feedback on this topic it's some great advice.

 

[CollinsRN]

I regret that this must be me first post, but this topic is near to me. I am an active member of the LBGT resource center at Memorial University and an infantry soldier service with the 1st Batallion Royal Newfoundland Regiment. I make little effort to hide my sexual orientation (bisexual), but I do not bring it up unless it is somehow relevent, such as talking about past relationships.

I fully understood joining the military would require thick skin. However, I was to believe there was a harrassment policy protecting members from discrimination or biggotry based on sexual orientation among other things, and I have felt that as a non-heterosexual man, this policy (at least the sexual orientation part) feels like posturing and a lot of talk, rather than something that is taken seriously.

I unfortunately encountered an incident on a live fire range where an individual was, perhaps in his highschool mentality, doing foolish stuff such as pasting nazi symbology on the targets. I politely asked him to give it up, and was asked if I was Jewish. I told him that it wasn't just Jews that were exterminated, but a number of other groups such as homosexuals. Upon mention of homosexuals, the individual said, 'Well, they should be shot.' After a verbal exchange where I warned him not to make such comments, he was up in my face spouting that same line repeatedly. Given that we were on a live fire range, I was quite shaken, and a MCpl removed me from training for a portion of that day.

When the issue was raised to the Sergeant Major, and passed up the chain of command, the soldier was asked to make an apology. While I felt such punishment was completely unfitting for such a comment when I'm told there's a 'zero tolerance' policy, I got the impression that the Sergeant Major wanted me to drop it. Not wanting to hurt the cohesion of my course or attract anymore hate to myself, I dropped the issue. I considered it would be better off for the morale of all involved, especially considering it would make me some enemies from his unit I imagined. I think this is the start of me taking this stuff more seriously and being more affected by it.

Since then, the most I've dealt with is the rampant use of the words 'gay' and 'fag' prominent in everyday military life. Used to be it didn't bother me, because I guess I had faith that people didn't really mean it. In most cases, this is certainly true, as we're talkin about highschool kids whom it belongs just part of their vocabulary.  But at its core, use of such words is rooted in hate, or at least the idea that being gay is wrong. Hearing it the odd time would hardly bother me, but I hear it dozens of times a day, every day, and noone bats an eyelash. Substitute this case for discrimination based on race, ethnicity, or religion, and I feel individuals would be so quick to be brought up on charge parade it would make their head spin.

I hardly believe my entire experience in the Canadian Forces has been a negative one. In fact, I will say the vast majority, at least on my courses, have been very understanding and considerate. My home unit is also amazingly good for it, however, I have come to hate the time I spend in Gagetown, specifically in the D-lines because of the rampant abuse of such language. I honestly do not feel like enough is being done to stamp such sentiments out, specifically among the combat arms trades, and have been considering release or trade transfer. I have tolerated it for over 3 years, but hearing people called 'faggots' and 'stop being gay' non stop while away it has slowly eroded away my morale and enjoyment of the military experience.

It may be that most of you will think I'm being too sensitive or that I don't have a thick skin, but I do not think that's the case. Just ask yourself if you would consider it unreasonable for a member of a visible minority to be bothered by racist comments over such a period of time.

 

[aesop081]

I dropped the issue.

That is a decision you made so live with it. You had options to deal with this, all well within CF policy. You were taught these during basic training. Situations like yours are to be resolved at the lowest level possible but If you were not happy with the resolution, you should have pursued it further.

 

[OldSolduer]

Interesting post Collins.

1. The soldier pasting nazi symbols on the target should have been stopped and disciplined by the MCpl, before you brought it to light.  You should not have been removed from trg.

2. Out west here, even our openly homosexual male soldiers use the words "gay" and "fag". We all do. No one is offended.

 

[vonGarvin]

Hi CollinsRN
It's a shame that the person putting the nazi symbology up weren't reminded of the 40000 or so Canadians who died fighting nazism.  (Please note, I deliberately do not capitalise "nazi").  Given from what you posted (again, just one side, but I accept your version), it sounds as though that this member would have picked on you
for any reason, not just your sexual preference.  Just one point about your post here:

But at its core, use of such words is rooted in hate, or at least the idea that being gay is wrong.

I would offer that the use of such words is rooted in much more than that. Ignorance may be one.  Popular culture, the "idea" of the male especially within the military culture, and in many cases, upbringing.  Not to imply that people are taught to refer to homosexuals as "faggots" or whatever, but humans are, as I stated before, xenophobic by  nature. It served us well as we evolved, and in our society known as "Human Kind" dating back thousands of years, there have indeed been many societal views on homosexuality; however, nothing like society is like today.

Anyway, I also like to think that people are essentially jerks as well.  Especially to outsiders.  And "outside" can refer to anything from skin colour, hair colour (think "Kick a Ginger Day"), to accent to anything. 

I'm sorry to hear that your D-Line experience has been that bad.  I can offer no advice, because I have no idea how you feel.  Keep your chin up, I suppose.

 

[CollinsRN]

That is a decision you made so live with it. You had options to deal with this, all well within CF policy. You were taught these during basic training. Situations like yours are to be resolved at the lowest level possible but If you were not happy with the resolution, you should have pursued it further.

While I understand your point, as a private recruit, I felt intimidated by the idea of telling a Sergeant Major that I thought it was completely unnacceptable and that an apology hardly makes up for someone telling me I should be shot to my face, on a range. Combine that with the fact that my course was essentially divided down the middle between persons from my unit, and persons from his unit, I had reason to believe that any action would ultimately come back to bite me. I honestly do not mean to be snarky at all, but when a sergeant major and half of your coursemates are essentially telling you to drop it and you have less than half a year in, you do.

But you're right, it was my decision. I am living with it. Do I regret it? Not really, that soldier could have smartened up and become a decent member. In fact, I've talked to him since without much of a problem. However, I wasn't exactly made to feel like the harrassment policy mattered. I have a feeling that had it been someone that said the 'n' word and claimed african Canadians should be shot, it surely would not have stopped without a charge.

Interesting post Collins.

1. The soldier pasting nazi symbols on the target should have been stopped and disciplined by the MCpl, before you brought it to light.  You should not have been removed from trg.

2. Out west here, even our openly homosexual male soldiers use the words "gay" and "fag". We all do. No one is offended.

Yes to the first point. As for the second, I don't think that's a fair excuse, and I'll reference the infamous 'n' word subject again. Yes, you may get away with it with your close friends, but as a general rule until you have that level of comfort with an individual it's pretty unacceptable to assume it's ok. It's used perjoratively ammong a lot of my gay friends back home, as I've seen this, but you can hardly believe that a gay person saying 'fag' means it in any discriminatory manner. Maybe the gay guys who think it's completely acceptable are naive enough to think that there is no root problem with it. They don't realize they reinforce discrimination by using such a word as well. When you've grown up in a small community dominated by small minded people however, and have faced threats of being kicked out of your house and outright discrimination from family as well as peers, it digs a lot deeper and yes, makes me quite a bit more defensive on the issue.

I would offer that the use of such words is rooted in much more than that. Ignorance may be one.  Popular culture, the "idea" of the male especially within the military culture, and in many cases, upbringing. 

When you trace it back to it's roots, it all comes back to the main idea that being homosexual is wrong. Yes, I agree, human nature is somewhat disgusting in that we tend to be quite on the xenophobic side. I am far from perfect myself, such as using the word retard which a fellow soldier pointed out to me when discussing the issue of discriminatory language. Thing is, I'm actively working on it, because he's right, I don't believe it's acceptable. It took a long time to stamp out usage of racial epithets, for sure. It's hardly completely gone, but it's far better. I would like the same to happen with 'fag' and 'gay' used to mean 'stupid', 'weak', 'lame', etc.

As I said, I brush most things off. For the most part, I fully realize that everyone gets poked fun at in the military, and you just accept it and think up a comeback to yourself in a battle of wits. But it's the sheer volume and constant usage that has wore away on me over the period of my career in the reserves.

Ironically enough, I am completely for free speech and do not believe in speech codes for the public whatsoever. I can choose who I associate with on the civillian side of the world, and if they offend me, I can say my piece and leave. I have no choice of who I work with, however.

I'd also like to reiterate, however, that most of my experience in the military has been wholly positive, and I've done my damndest to put my head down and keep on soldiering on. I would not advise against my gay friends joining the military, but I would warn them what to expect.

 

[vonGarvin]

When you trace it back to it's roots, it all comes back to the main idea that being homosexual is wrong. Yes, I agree, human nature is somewhat disgusting in that we tend to be quite on the xenophobic side.

Just in the interest of accuracy, I placed on judgement on humans being xenophobic.  It's natural.  I don't think it's disgusting at all.  It is just who we are and how we are, in general.

And, in the interest of free speech, I personally am disgusted by images of homosexuality.  Having said that, and to put it into perspective, I am also disgusted by images of unattractive heterosexuality.  (Think "obese people having intercourse")  Doesn't mean I agree or disagree with it.  When all is said and done, I couldn't give a flying f**k what a person's sexual orientation is.  If that person is a soldier, and that person can soldier, then that's all that matters: gay, straight or otherwise.

Anyway, as stated, don't lose faith.  Just remember that Xenophobia fades when one is no longer "alien". 

EDIT TO ADD FOR CLARITY:  Just because I find something disgusting doesn't make it anyone's issue but my own.  If I turn on the TV and there is a show about Dicso or whatever else I find "disgusting", I'll just change the channel, etc.

 

[armyvern]

I just want to thank everyone who was able to provide feedback on this topic it's some great advice.

When you do (rarely) run into the occasional homophobe who feels need to make mention of something such as:

"I don't need your type here watching me shower or hitting on me." Just respond with a loud and proud "Don't fucking flatter yourself."

Seems to me, it works - especially if his/her buddies happen to be standing around.    That's the response that I give 'em when I hear chatter & it shuts them up real fast.

 

[vonGarvin]

When you do (rarely) run into the occasional homophobe who feels need to make mention of something such as:

"I don't need your type here watching me shower or hitting on me." Just respond with a loud and proud "Don't fucking flatter yourself."

Seems to me, it works - especially if his/her buddies happen to be standing around.    That's the response that I give 'em when I hear chatter & it shuts them up real fast.

Best.  Post.  Ever! 

 

[Kat Stevens]

I heard one once that went something like "Don't worry, you couldn't get hit on in a Russian bath house with a 5 gallon gerry can of vodka on your back."

 

[Fusaki]

Since then, the most I've dealt with is the rampant use of the words 'gay' and 'fag' prominent in everyday military life. Used to be it didn't bother me, because I guess I had faith that people didn't really mean it. In most cases, this is certainly true, as we're talkin about highschool kids whom it belongs just part of their vocabulary.  But at its core, use of such words is rooted in hate, or at least the idea that being gay is wrong. Hearing it the odd time would hardly bother me, but I hear it dozens of times a day, every day, and noone bats an eyelash. Substitute this case for discrimination based on race, ethnicity, or religion, and I feel individuals would be so quick to be brought up on charge parade it would make their head spin.

Up until recently, I've been one of those guys you're talking about.  To yourself, and to those who I've insulted and discriminated against, I am truly sorry.

Up until recently, words like gay, fag, and homo had been staples of my vocabulary.  I have homosexual friends around whom I'd try and tone it down and I've never used that kind of language with any sort of malice towards anyone in the LGBT community.  Around army guys though, it has been common for me to throw around those discriminatory slurs any time I was at a loss for words to describe something or someone I didn't like.

I've since realized that I shouldn't say what I don't mean.  I shouldn't have to watch my language around my gay friends for fear of insulting them, and I shouldn't be perpetuating hate and discrimination against people who just don't deserve it.

If someone were to go around my unit calling black guys niggers, no one would suggest that the the victims should grow some thicker skin.  A simple apology would not be seen as sufficient punishment.  If a new guy Pte were called a nigger, but kept his mouth shut in an effort to be the "grey man" on course, no one would say to him afterwords "you've made your decision, so live with it."  Both legally and morally, this is no different.

CollinsRN, keep on fighting the good fight.  Understand that sometimes the situation is best diffused in a manner Vern mentioned above.  Recognize though, that someday you may need to handle discrimination through official means.  In the mean time, you should strive to be the most competent and motivated soldier you know.  The best thing you can do for the LGBT community within the Canadian Forces is to be one of the top soldiers in your unit.  People who were originally unsure about serving with bisexual members should look to you first as the guy who will bring the team through the toughest of situations.

Good luck.

 

[CollinsRN]

Up until recently, words like gay, fag, and homo had been staples of my vocabulary.  I have homosexual friends around whom I'd try and tone it down and I've never used that kind of language with any sort of malice towards anyone in the LGBT community.  Around army guys though, it has been common for me to throw around those discriminatory slurs any time I was at a loss for words to describe something or someone I didn't like.

Thanks, that's all any reasonable person could hope to ask. I can't demand the army turn on its head for my sake, and it would be completely unrealistic of me to expect things to be perfect immediately. The environment is far more welcoming than it used to be, and if asked, most soldiers I've met will reassure you there is no real intent behind it. Just as thinking affects language, however, language in term affects thinking; hearing the use of 'fag' and 'gay' to mean 'stupid' or 'lame' will ultimately internalize such ideas about queer-folk (whether they be gay, bisexual, transgender, or anywhere along the continuum), and reinforces a culture and attitude which causes much hardship and discrimination. However, every little effort is appreciated, and I thank you and all those like you.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Wonderbread - thanks for making me take a long hard and uncomfortable look at myself.  I too have many friends in the LBGT community, some of whom are serving members, and some of whom are former comrades in arms, and like you, I am careful to moderate my language tics (and that is often what they are) around them.  Sadly, I am not as circumspect in general at work.  I will fix that.

CollinsRN - I admire your courage and your forthrightness.  Soldier on.

Dave

 

[Jarnhamar]

Nope. It's no perpetuating ugly stereotypes day and it's actually meant to run ad infinitum.

Take a peek at the quote below. It was posted as the first reply in this thread, advice you chose to ignore. Your post adds nothing.

I am not entertaining any more questions about this.

It's also called using humor to bridge a gap.

davidsonr_91, you'll notice that even when someone is uncomfortable with homosexuals in the military they will try and find ways around it.  A sense of humor and bad jokes is often the first step. It's someone testing the waters and getting comfortable with the whole thing.  (Not suggesting this is what EITS was doing, I have a feeling he was making the common straight male "I'm a lesbian I love women too" joke).

You'll probably get made fun of and picked on, you should be concerned if you don't.  The Jewish guy is going to face Jewish jokes. Indians will get picked on for being Indians. Fat guys for being fat,  dumb people for being dumb. You're gay guess what you'll be picked on for?
Most of the jokes will be harmless, probably some tasteless. But if someone starts giving as good as he's getting ( ha ) guys will respect that and jokes aside anyone from "outside" who tries to screw with him are gonna have a dozen dudes ready to rip people apart defending the guy.
Young guys will have a big problem with it, they'll feel like it's taking away from their manhood alphamaleness if they don't make a big stink about it.
The older wiser guys will use your sexual orientation to get chicks cause we all know gay men drop a woman's guard faster than a 6 pack of Smirnoff ice.

I'm like Wonderbred.  Gay was a big part of my vocabulary and I try and tone it down. My favorite tactic in the past has been to take the most homophobic acting guy and when I'm in a group, comment that something is gay and then look at him directly,  and say "Not that there's anything wrong with being gay, or gays in the military..." then look away as everyone else looks at him wondering.

 

[Scott]

Your taking that back and forth out of context. This thread has been merged with old ones. Back when I made my comment it was because caution had been given to all to keep it clean and serious and then that first post came

 

[Danjanou]

Interesting discussion.

One point that's been hinted at a lot here is that attitudes and standards change. As one of the old breed dinosaurs, I remember a time when acceptance and tolerance for LGBT members were far from the norm and both official discrimination and barrack room vigilantism were. That was wrong, and we moved forward as we should have and quite fast in the past 2 decades especially for such a conservative and as noted xenophobic organization. Some of us, especially older members haven't moved as past. I don't excuse your CSM, ( or at least your perceptions of his actions), however maybe I can understand why.

Several have also touched on Troopie humour a lot here too. Yeah sometimes "gay" jokes could be seen as offensive as would any specific ethnic type as the Viking and other have put it, but they happen. Question Collin 1st Bn still sit around and tell Newfy jokes , or "Baymen/Townie" jokes in the mess? What happens if some poor sod from the RNBR or WNSR is caught telling one? Troopie humour is often ( almost always) black and inappropriate, however it’s a tool that we sometimes use to get us through the bad patches.