The Martial Arts Superthread

[paracowboy]

Systema is not ancient. It is effective.

 

[Chimo]

I think that unarmed combat should be part of each units PT program. Of course this would take a huge cultural change in many of the units. I think it should be introduced at basic and continued through each level of training. This training would be reinforced at the unit level through competition and practise.

The younger troops enjoy the challenge and feel that they benefit from it. We need to make instructor courses readily available and then use the instructors for that purpose.

 

[Kat Stevens]

First we need to convince the pointy heads that aggression is not a bad trait in a soldier.  I joined in '80, and even then we were getting fluffier.  I was a pretty fair amateur boxer as a teen, when I asked my recruiter about army boxing, he looked at me like a cow looking at a new gate.  Other than the LIBs, good aggressive training doesn't exist in combat arms.  It takes far less imagination to run 4 times a week than to sign out some rubber training knives and toss each other about a large mat for an hour.  Bring back boxing, pugil sticks, and bear pit.  Even a unit rugby team would instill some fight.  Hire a qualified jiu jutsu teacher at each Garrison, and for gods sake, use him/her.  We lost sight of the fact that our job, ultimately is to hurt people if we have to....my $.02

Kat

 

[Haggis]

I had the chance, about 10 years ago, to spend some time on ex with some South Korean Special Forces types.  All small men but as hard as they come.  Their nickname in the ROK is "Steel Men".

Anywhoo... they practised and swore by Tae-Kwon-Do.  For the unintitiated, Tae-Kwon-Do is a particulary vicious form of Karate.  Among some other arts, I studied Tae-Kwon-Do for a couple of years and found it particularly suited to close-in combat.

I know that the CF regularly fields and supports Tae-Kwon-Do teams in both CISM and CIOR leading me to believe that Tae-Kwon-Do is the de-facto "official"  Martial Art of the CF.  There was even a CF patron appointed, however his name escapes me.

Comments?

 

[Kat Stevens]

The CISM ninjas all do their training on weekends and evenings, I believe, ie on their own time.  Back in the early part of my carreer we also sent competitiors to judo and boxing CISM events, all training on their own time.  I think everyone in the combat arms should at least be given basic instuction.  Also keep a kubotan in their webbing, and know how to use it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think tae kwon doe is geared more towards sports and less on self defense.

I found while I was in taekwondo that there was a big rush to get people to black belt. Lots of rules too in sparing like no punching in the face.  I got used to that and when I started boxing with some of my buddies i was getting hit in the face a lot because i was so used to not having to defend against that.

For self defense and what soldiers do I think aikido is great.

 

[paracowboy]

I think tae kwon doe is geared more towards sports and less on self defense.

depends on the style and instructor. WTF is very sport oriented. Especially in the cookie-cutter,money-making dojangs found scattered throughout suburbia, along with Starbucks'n'bucks-for-a-cup-of-freakin'-coffee! My tae kwon do teacher was a li'l Vietnamese dude who was interested in teaching you how to fight, how to survive, and how to arrest/subdue/kill an assailant.

For self defense and what soldiers do I think aikido is great.

too complicated and takes too long to become proficient. Simplicity is key. Gross motor movements. Lots of contact.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Gracey jiu jutsu is the way to go. brutal, fast, and effective

 

[TCBF]

I thought the Red Army practiced 'sambo'?

Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?

Tom

 

[The_Falcon]

I thought the Red Army practiced 'sambo'?

Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?

Tom

They probably did to some extent.  Systema "The System" was/is used by the special forces units.  If you are going to practice martial arts for possible use in the military, pick one that would allow you to actually fight wearing all your kit.  Those high flying TKD kicks aren't going to do much good when you are wearing 50lbs of gear.

 

[paracowboy]

despite the recent marketing ploys, Systema is Samo Obrovna (Sambo). Which is why it's so bloody effective.

 

[Zartan]

If someone coulod answer this, I would be greatly thankful. Just out of curiosity, what Martial Art would you, impartially recommend? I had been thinking of taking up Tae-Kwon-Do, but my schedule got in the way. However, interest (and desire) still remain. For the record, I have no prior experience in Martial Arts and combatives.

Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?

Are you thinking of Mr. Underwood? Here's a post done by someone who works for him (well a company which offers Underwood's techniques): http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32428.0.html
enjoy.

 

[TCBF]

I was thinking about Mr Bill Underwood, who started developing "Combato" in 1907, fought in WW1, trained SOE in Combato in WW2, softened it to 'Defendo" in 1945, and passed that on to a guy who teaches it in toronto today.

As to which one to use, you got me.  I no nothing of such stuff.

Tom

 

[Fusaki]

I've been training the Russian Martial Art in Hamilton and Toronto on and off for the last year and a half and I find it to be very good. Its a ancient russian martial art that is utilized by the Spetznaz and other Russian special forces. I'll post the site and if anyone around the areas of the schools are interested i suggest you take a class or two to check it out. Its good, cheap and pretty relaxed atmosphere.

http://www.russianmartialart.com

This past winter my CQC/MMA club in Petawawa made the trip down to Toronto for a private lesson under Mr Vasiliev. It was an interesting experience to say the least. Some of the techniques looked a little hokey, especially if you're watching the videos on the website where he takes on 5 guys at a time. But the other stuff is VERY effective. In all, I'd say it was a highlight of my time with the club.

If someone coulod answer this, I would be greatly thankful. Just out of curiosity, what Martial Art would you, impartially recommend?

I'd recommend Muay Thai kickboxing and Brazillian (AKA Gracie) Jiu Jutsu. Thai kickboxing covers a wider range of stand up fighting when compared to other styles of kickboxing (Knees, elbows, and clinching) BJJ focuses on groundwork. For military purposes these arts would need to be adapted for the bulk of bodyarmour and the use of weapons, but IMHO the buildingblocks are there.

 

[Island Ryhno]

Your Martial Art style depends on your instructor, if they are traditionalist or sport types, then they are mostly ineffective when it comes to actual fighting. When you go to check out a dojo in your choice of martial art, ask for a free session or two, ask if they teach based on sport or tradition or combat, then decide for yourself. The best mixed martial artists in the world adapt the things taught in different martial arts to a usefull style of their own. To say one style is better than the other is just opinion. I've done Judo, BJJ, TKD, Jeet Kune Do, Kali/Escrima and wing chun. Depends on what you want. I've found the best mix to be Judo (if you can get someone to teach it in combat style) BJJ and Jeet Kune Do or Wing Chun. The best of grappling and striking. And it should be part of regular PT, anyone here who has grappled for an hour can tell you it's as good as any time spent lifting weights or running.

 

[Springroll]

Both my hubby and I think that a martial arts program would be awesome for the CF, especially if it was made a part of the regular PT program and is utilised by those that could really use it. Him being on ship, it would be hard to use it, but for any trade that requires any sort of soldier qualification, it would be greatly beneficial to teach them even the most basic of moves. My hubby trained in Ju Jitsu(sp?) for many years before joining the CF and said that it is definitely an effective martial art, provided that you properly use what is taught.

 

[Zarathustra]

I'm in the recruiting process and it's a bit slow for me so to keep busy I started studying Senshido. (www.senshido.com) It's not a traditional martial art, it's a mix of whatever works from other martial arts. We do Muay Thai Kickboxing for PT/sport and Senshido for self-defense. We do a lot talking trying to de-escalate conflict and avoid fighting. But if we can't avoid it then we go for the eyes, throat, balls, we bite, etc. It's really not sport. They teach the legal and psychological aspects too. Their philosophy is if someone attacks you they basically sign a big disclaimer stating they accept all the physical risk associated with this kind of activity. So whatever works against them you're allowed to use it.

I only started like a month ago but so far I like it. There's a lot of information on the website if you're curious.

 

[paracowboy]

Zartan,
the eternal quest to master the elusive art of the sukiyaki nose-toss is highly individualistic. As the High and Exalted One, Bruce Jun Fan Lee stated "Your Way is not my Way". (Actually Brucie was ripping off Krishnamurti, but I digress. Again.)

What style to study depends entirely on your personality, body-type, location, finances, and goals. If you like full-contact, no-nonsense ass-kickery, then look into Muay Thai, MMA, Krav Maga, Boxing, etc.
If you like the quasi-spiritual, emotional quest for self-perfection, then one of the more Traditional Japanese styles, may work.
If you like the artistic beauty of the forms, look into Chinese styles. Or Capoeria.
If you want to master the use of realistic weaponry, look into Phillipino/Malaysian systems.

Are you tall and skinny? Try Tae Kwon Do. Are you short and squat? Try Judo or wrestling.

My advice? Find every martial arts school in the phone book. Spend a week or two at each one, to try the style and instructor out. If you get a funky vibe, leave. If you don't like the student's behaviour, leave. If the instructor won't let you 'sample' the place, leave.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

I think that unarmed combat should be part of each units PT program. Of course this would take a huge cultural change in many of the units. I think it should be introduced at basic and continued through each level of training. This training would be reinforced at the unit level through competition and practise.

The younger troops enjoy the challenge and feel that they benefit from it. We need to make instructor courses readily available and then use the instructors for that purpose.

The Marine Corps has a martial arts program with a multiple belt level system.  Every recruit gets trained to the tan belt level during boot camp.  Once you rotate to the fleet, you eventually get trained to the grey belt level.  Some then move on to the green belt or attend the four week green belt instructor's course and become Marine Corps martial arts instructors.

The martial arts program is not excessively easy.  Marines are regularly injured while going through the different belt levels or just during practice.  In my shop, my Gunny and a Sgt were practicing ground fighting and the gunny accidently broke the Sgt's pinky finger which resulted in him having to wear a cast for three weeks.  This was not the intent but when you're rolling around on the grass with a 110 degree humidity index, hands and fingers tend to slip.

As for incorporating martial arts into PT, it depends on which unit you are with.  Not all Marines are trained to the same belt level nor do all of them have access to get trained to higher belt levels.  Martial arts is a perrishable skill.  If you don't use it, you'll loose it.

In my shop, two of us are working at getting our grey belt.  Our training consists of a two mile boots and uts with flack jacket run, some active recrovery and then into ground fighting for a few hours every other day.  We'll be done soon.  I'll try and find the Marine martial arts website and post the link.

PJ D-Dog

 

[paracowboy]

from what I've seen of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children and their system of fisticuffs, it's a very well thought-out program. Sort of the same ideas taught by Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, and Co, but modernized for today's battlefield.
There is no reason on earth that the CF couldn't rip this idea off.