The Legality of Self Defence In Canada

[JB 11 11]

Personally, I think in the short term, dropping some cash and going the private vehicle route is the safest alternative if you are really worried about it. That said, I also know what its like to own a vehicle in T.O. being a native (of Toronto ) myself and that it may not be a realistic alternative at the moment.

But, I do think that if your situation is going to be the same for the foreseeable future, then definitely get her into some self defence classes. I personally have taken most of the top 5 "Martial Arts" to proficiency, and some beyond. From this experience and that of also living and working in some of Downtown T.O.'s shittier neighbourhoods, most notably, the Regent Park area and Parkdale (back in the mid-late 90's before it became a trendy, Hipster hood) I would say the following:

Avoid The Japanese Arts such as Karate, Jujitsu and Aikido, as on their own, they're pretty useless for most people in a personal safety situation. Combined its a different story, but it takes years and years for this to be the case. And most schools don't teach you what is most important in an Urban environment, namely, situational awareness.

Yeah, yeah... its a fancy catch phrase, but call it what ever you want to... the bottom line is that knowing how to read the situation is the best thing one can do. Therefor, for this reason, among many others I would personally recommend checking out a Krav Maga school. There are some in T.O.
This is one of the best systems out there for "everyone". It was developed by the Israelis, and I have seen first hand what even tiny folk can do with this system.
It was developed with "real" situations in mind. The kind IDF soldiers might face in the streets of Jerusalem or Gaza, in or out of uniform. My buddy Chris has been taking it for about 3 years now. He's a skinny Asian guy, about 5ft nothing and rather effeminate shall we say ;D
I've spared with the guy a couple of times, the first time I took it easy as I didnt want to kill the guy ( I had about 60-70 lbs on the guy and a lot more experience). Let me tell you, he got my full attention real quick!! I also spared with a couple of ladies that go to the same school.... its a good system, lets just leave it at that :nod:

Anyway, look it up at least. Its not just for "self Defence" its a wikkid work out as well.

In terms of carrying something to defend yourself with? This works on the same principle as any martial art. You need to know what you are doing, never mind the legal aspects of it all. I mean, these days people are being sued by burglars that got mauled by the family dog or caught a baseball bat to the kneecap when they were breaking into their homes!

In the end common sense prevails, get her some training if for no other reason than for peace of mind. Hope this helps.

 

[Strike]

I still believe that, in the end, it doesn't matter what type of martial art/self-defence one takes.  All of them improve self-confidence and that translates to how you carry yourself.  They also teach you how to be aware of your surroundings and reading people.

A weekend course at the YMCA won't suffice.  It's something that needs to be practiced over the long period.

Remember, this is coming from a WTF taekwondo snob.  ;D

 

[JB 11 11]

Remember, this is coming from a WTF taekwondo snob.  ;D

Need we say more :blotto: Just bustin' yer chops. I took Taekwondo for about 6-7 years. Not what I would call awesome in the street, but your comment about carrying yourself is very valid 

 

[Strike]

Need we say more :blotto: Just bustin' yer chops. I took Taekwondo for about 6-7 years. Not what I would call awesome in the street, but your comment about carrying yourself is very valid 

Well, it all depends which tkd school you go to now doesn't it?

I've gone to some that are all about tkd and nothing but.  Then there are others that also focus on self-defence, some of which include disarming and ground work.  The current school I train at does a lot of work base around how to defend yourself from someone who is wielding a knife or stick/baton.

 

[JB 11 11]

Do You go to a school on base somewhere? I've found that most classes on bases tend to mix it up a bit. One of the better Martial Arts schools I've been to was the one at Uplands years ago. Can't recall the name of the guy who ran it, as I was only dropping in with another buddy of mine every once in a while, but he was pretty awesome. Used to blend a lot of different forms, like Kempo, Aikido and jujitsu/judo. Got my ass handed to me regularly  8)

I've always thought Taekwondo could be so much better than it is.... then I found out about Hapkido.... now THATS a martial art. Very pleasing to the eye and bat shit crazy!

 

[bdave]

Thanks for the input guys,

Re: Getting a car

I have a car, it's paid off, and it was awesome when I was making CPL4 and living in the shacks.  But these days I just can't afford to keep it on the road.  Car insurance, gas, parking, and maintenance add up fast.  Driving just isn't an option while I'm paying my way through school and she's up to her neck in student debt - working for pennies as she desperately tries to find a career in her field.

Re: Routes, helpful bystanders/TTC employees, travelling with friends

Unfortunately, I don't think we can depend on any of these things.  I'm not sure that the risks of getting lost or spending more time in the city outweigh the risks of taking the same route every night.  The IED threat in downtown TO is nil, but you're likely to find crazies regardless of what route you take.  On the assumption that most attacks on women in TO are against random passersby and not targeted individuals, I think the best option for her is to come straight home.

I'm also not willing to depend solely on the kindness of strangers or friends that may or may not be around in a time of crisis.  While I think it's important to recognize the value in travelling with friends, knowing the TTC safety programs, and staying in well lit areas, no one can guarantee that this kind of help will be available all the time.  An argument can be made that these initiatives don't necessarily diminish the overall risk, but instead just focus them to the dark places you can't avoid and toward the women who have no choice but to travel alone.  I'm looking for an option that is available and effective every time, all the time.

Greymatters raises a good point,

I don't think she'd be able to defend herself unarmed without a lot of training time that she just doesn't have.  I'm highly suspicious of any fighting system that tries to sell you skills that can be learned overnight and used against likely attackers.  Most women would have to put in some long and hard hours to develop the ability to fend off a man with a +50lb advantage.  Even if we had the money to put her into that kind of training, I don't think she'd have the time to commit between working and career applications.  Realistically, "putting her in a self defense course" just won't cut it.

To be fair, I mentioned carrying a knife in my first post in this thread because, legality aside, I think it would be something that would be good for me.  Especially given the specific knife I linked to (if you havn't checked it out, you should) and characteristics that make it quick to deploy and easy to retain, I'm pretty sure that I could use it effectively to extract myself from most situations.  What Greymatters has drawn attention to though, is that I've been thinking about what would make sense for me - a guy with 7 years in the infantry and combat experience; not what would make sense for my girlfriend, who's never been in a fight in her life.

I've been thinking about this all wrong.

So far, I think the horn is the best idea: it's something that's legal and something she'd potentially have the skill and the will to use.  That said, I see a few problems with the horn idea:

In the event of an attack, would she have the fine motor skills to pull the horn from her purse and push the button to make it work?

Is a loud noise really likely to deter an attacker?  What if he's drunk or high?

What if no one is around to hear the noise?

The best defense, bar none, is situational awareness. Be aware of your surroundings and be aware of the consequences of your actions. Going down this back alley, as opposed to down this crow street, etc.

Noise can deter an attack, but if no one comes to help, then it simply solidifies the concept in the attacker's mind that he'll get away with it.

I have heard that someone yelling 'help me' or 'I'm being attacked/raped!' is less likely to be helped than someone shouting 'fire'. Fear of personal harm might be the reason.

A great concept you can use is classic misdirection.
If you're cornered and you don't know what to do, looking behind the person and saying something like 'Hey! Help me!', will usually cause the person to turn around and look. You could use this opportunity to do some pre-emptive striking and kick him in the nuts. You could run away, but a kick in the nuts is always a good idea.
If he's drunk or high, then do misdirection or a pre emptive strike.
A small, quick, powerful movement like a knee to the groin, elbow to the face or kick to the nuts is what you want.
As for kicking someone in the nuts, your average person makes the mistake of hitting the groinal area with their foot, or the tip of their toes.
When you do this, your foot bends, meaning some of the energy is lost.
You want to hit the groinal area with the lower part of your leg; your lower tibia. Bone on bone.

 

[captloadie]

Take this as a naive question from someone who has never lived in Toronto: How often are young single women attacked on the TTC late at night? Yes, if its was your girlfriend, one would be too many. But have we just used 4 pages to discuss a hypothetical which in reality is statistically insignificant?

As far as CCW permits, aren't there enough shootings happening in TO already without finding another loophole to make it legal.

 

[Container]

The bangers killing each other in Toronto wouldnt be eligible for a CCW. Even this "never going to happen" hypothetical one.

 

[JB 11 11]

As much as I enjoy shooting, CCW's are the worst idea ever. Full Stop.

Call me jaded, but there are enough dicks out there already and we want to issue more CCW permits to these people?!?!  :rofl:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As much as I enjoy shooting, CCW's are the worst idea ever. Full Stop.

Call me jaded, but there are enough dicks out there already and we want to issue more CCW permits to these people?!?!  :rofl:

So you're saying that if someone agrees or wants CCW they are a dick that can't be trusted?

You don't even know what your talking about, but that's your opinion.

I think that people that make uninformed statements, foist their personal values on others and resort to ad hominem attacks to bolster their ignorant outlook are arrogant pompous assholes that should be pitied for their narrowmindedness. That's my opinion.


edit to add smiley
Oh, forgot this:  :rofl:

 

[Oh No a Canadian]

So you're saying that if someone agrees or wants CCW they are a dick that can't be trusted?

I think he is saying that their are a lot of dicks in this world and he would rather no one gets a CCW than any one.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think he is saying that their are a lot of dicks in this world and he would rather no one gets a CCW than any one.

You can think anything you want. It doesn't change my opinion.

 

[Container]

Obviously this isnt as a cop but as a private citizen.

If you cant differentiate between well screened upstanding citizens being able to carry a piece and gang bangers who victimize this is a moot point.

But I know lots of non-cops who I would be fine with carrying. In fact- Ive received firearms training from ordinary people that shoot a million times better than I and are excellent people. You would probably be better off with them at a scene where things go sideways and me to investgate after. And thats high praise cause Im pretty great (lol).

But seriously- people that are afraid of good people willing to take on the responsibility dont make alot of sense to me. Scrotes and dickheads dont get permits. And so far they havent needed them to do wrong.

Buuuuuut....CCW is pretty far off in Canada. And by far off I mean its not happening. We still dont even want all our LEO's armed and are uncomfortable with soldiers doing ruck marches near neighbourhoods- (some of us anyways).

 

[mariomike]

Take this as a naive question from someone who has never lived in Toronto: How often are young single women attacked on the TTC late at night? Yes, if its was your girlfriend, one would be too many. But have we just used 4 pages to discuss a hypothetical which in reality is statistically insignificant?

I responded to 9-1-1 calls on TTC vehicles and property for just shy of 37 years. Attacks on young, single women requiring transport to hospital were rare. Extremely rare.
On the other hand, a lot of broken and bloody drivers have to be extricated from their cars and transported to hospital.
More people are coming to Toronto every day. More riders = more crime on the TTC. If they decide to drive, it means more accidents on the roads.
As far as security goes, women still have to walk to and from their cars. What if it does not start? Or has a flat tire? Or breaks down on the way home? Or has a fender bender that turns violent?
I am not saying TTC is always the better way. But, when it comes to safety and security, these are things to consider.

Incidentally, if she ever panics on the subway, tell her to use the Passenger Assistance Alarm PAA. Never use  the Emergency Stop Device. Sometimes people do that, but it is a mistake. Unless you are on the station platform. Otherwise, you will stop the train in a tunnel.

 

[GAP]

This may be true on the actuall TTC system itself, but I think we're talking about the whole gamit...stations, streets, isolated areas.....I can see where there would be concern...

 

[Container]

I responded to 9-1-1 calls on TTC vehicles and property for just shy of 37 years. Attacks on young, single women requiring transport to hospital were rare. Extremely rare.
On the other hand, a lot of broken and bloody drivers have to be extricated from their cars and transported to hospital.
More people are coming to Toronto every day. More riders = more crime on the TTC. If they decide to drive, it means more accidents on the roads.
As far as security goes, women still have to walk to and from their cars. What if it does not start? Or has a flat tire? Or breaks down on the way home? Or has a fender bender that turns violent?
I am not saying TTC is always the better way. But, when it comes to safety and security, these are things to consider.

Incidentally, if she ever panics on the subway, tell her to use the Passenger Assistance Alarm PAA. Never use  the Emergency Stop Device. Sometimes people do that, but it is a mistake. Unless you are on the station platform. Otherwise, you will stop the train in a tunnel.

Very true MM,

The wrecks are the calls that stay with you.

 

[mariomike]

Very true MM,

The wrecks are the calls that stay with you.

I was thinking of our discussion about the young man who was beheaded on the Greyhound bus out west, Container. It generated a significant amount of concern about safety on Canadian bus lines.
But, I wonder how many people are killed, or seriously injured, in wrecks on those highways?
I understand these are two different transit systems, but I still consider the bus a ( relatively ) safe way to travel. ( Although, after reading about that, I would try to keep one eye open when resting. ) 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Gents,

Please watch the tangents. This thread is not about vehicle accidents or EMS servicing them.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Sig_Des]

As far as CCW permits, aren't there enough shootings happening in TO already without finding another loophole to make it legal.

CCW as commonly known, in Canada it's actually called Authorization to Carry (ATC) is incredibly hard to get in Canada.

For Self-defense you have to meet to following requirements:

1) a threat assessment by a police agency clearly shows that the life of the individual(s) is in imminent danger from one or more individuals;

2) police protection is not sufficient in the circumstances;

3) the applicant has successfully completed training that is acceptable to the CFO in handgun proficiency and the use of force;

4) the possession of a restricted or prohibited handgun can reasonably be justified for protecting the individual(s) from death or grievously bodily harm;

5) the CFO determines that the particular restricted or prohibited handgun is appropriate in those circumstances or for that purpose;

6) the applicant must be a holder of an appropriate firearms license; and

7) the applicant has paid the appropriate fee.

So unless someone has documented records of being attacked and proving a constant threat, as well as proving that Police protection is not sufficient, which the PD would never admit to, it's basically administratively impossible to get approved for an ATC for self-defense

 

[Greymatters]

Take this as a naive question from someone who has never lived in Toronto: How often are young single women attacked on the TTC late at night? Yes, if its was your girlfriend, one would be too many. But have we just used 4 pages to discuss a hypothetical which in reality is statistically insignificant? 

If all women were as mentally and physically strong as ArmyVern (or as she is reputed to be anyway, Ive never met her and cant confirm it), this wouldnt be a significant problem, but unfortunately they arent.

Attacks on single women travelling alone at night have always been a problem, going back throughout human history. 

Many of us, including myself, think of attacks as a physical assault, or an attempt to isolate and phsycially assault a person.

Not so for many women.  To many of the women Ive known, an assault is anyone (90% of the time male) who makes lewd suggestions, gestures or body behaviours.  It includes any unwanted attention or comments, not just stalking and intimidation.  It includes sexual harassment, workplace violence, and humiliation in the workplace (all of which are alive and well despite laws and training programs).  Physical and verbal attack and all its aspects is one of their greatest fears, and it seems like most of them live in a constant state of bird-like panic that someone bigger or male will intimidate them.  Other examples include being threatened or intimidated by other drivers, or spoken to rudely in the street or in parking lots.  These kinds of events happen to women anytime they travel from one place to another.   

I would point out that Im a big believer in equality and women being able to do most any job a man can do, which sounds completely opposite to my comments on this subvject.  But even the most direct, outgoing, self-confident and successful businesswomen have these same concerns.