The Khadr Thread

[Bruce Monkhouse]

So?

 

[abo]

In WW2 and conflicts since then if you were a POW were you released after a set number of years ? Nope. Prisoners werent released until the war ended. Being a POW has no limitation on how long you are held. While these terrorists arent POW's they are being treated as such.Those that have been released have gone back to rejoin the fight. These are dangerous people who wont quit until they are dead. This is something people dont understand. The left wants people to think that a bunch of farmers were shipped off to Gitmo. Frankly if it werent important to get information from these guys I would favor a take no prisoners approach to the war on terror.

Uh.. a POW is only required to provide date of birth, rank and serial number in accord with the Geneva conventions. These guys aren't getting POW treatment, if they were it wouldn't be an issue, Omar would have been put in a camp with his peers and he'd be stuck there until someone negotiated for his release or the war came to an end.

Western nations have traditionally treated POWS very well since it opens the door for reciprocal treatment of our own troops. Not to mention the ethics of it. But when we label people terrorist and then throw them in places like Gitmo, were giving up the moral high ground.

In fairness organizations like Al-Qaeda are the ones who started it, they do the exact same thing they're just more degenerate about it. They label us infidels then chop off our heads.

But its in our best interests to treat these guys like POWS or guerrillas, then at least we can demand the same treatment for our own boys, god forbid they ever end up in such a circumstance.  :-\

 

[FoverF]

Now, I have to agree with Wesley that this IS essentially an "American" problem. I'm not really interested that this kid is a Canadian citizen, or Pakistani, or Syrian, or Martian. It was an American that got killed, they caught the alleged killer, he's in their custody, it essentially IS an American matter. But that doesn't mean I have to like what they're doing, and I'm still entitled to object to it in the most thorough terms.

I know sometimes boys have to become men in an awful hurry. But you can't say on one hand that he's a Canadian citizen who enjoyed all the benfits of our enlightened society, and is therefore a traitor, then on the other hand say he's fully responsible for his actions because he's a rough and ready mountain kid from Pakistan, responsible as a man at age 15. The answer as always lies somewhere in between, but somewhere in between is no grounds for sentancing a junior high kid to life in prison.

My main problems with this case are these:
1) I don't think he's a war criminal. -there are real war criminals out there, and this kid isn't one of them. This is just BS to justify his extra-judicial punishment. 
2) I don't think he was a terrorist. - a terrorist uses violence and/or the threat of violence against civilian targets, with the intention of drawing public attention towards their political objectives. Khadr attacked armed military pers who were deployed on combat ops. He may have associated with terrorists in some capacity, but that's for a fair and legitimate trial to sort out.
3) He is being treated worse than either a war criminal, or a terrorist.- both of these groups recieve timely trials. They are also kept in facilities that operate within the law, rather than facilities who only exist for the purposes of subverting the law.
4) He was a minor at the time of the offence. - seriously people, this kid was pulled out of middle school and sent to war.
5) He is being denied basic human rights, not to mention his rights as a Canadian. - people here say he is a traitor, who has renounced his Canadian citizenship, and all rights associated. I say them's aweful big words about someone who has never been allowed to set foot in a courtroom, and who has never been tried or found guilty of anything.
6) He will never get a fair trial. - ever. I don't like that. Even if he is a total dick, and deserves everything he's got and will get. He should still get a trial. It's called the rule of law. It's a good thing.

Omar Khadr spent half his life growing up with a family that is completely insane. Then his family sent him to die for Allah. Then he got shot, and he's spent the last six years in a chicken wire cage being beaten, sleep deprived, and interrogated. In my ideal hippy-loving world where everyone eats rainbows and shits butterflies, this unbelievably damaged individual would at least get a fair shake at a trial before we lock him in a cell for the rest of his natural life.

 

[1feral1]

In my ideal hippy-loving world where everyone eats rainbows and shits butterflies.....

Dear Sir,

Thankyou for your humble patience in responding to my post.

Your quote pretty much sums it up, doesn't it.

I don't know where you get your defintion of terrorism from, but in the real world, terrorists don't descriminate between civilian and military targets. Anything is game. Anything to create instability, mayhem, and panic. In regards to how you define terrorism, then what did I get caught up in Iraq in?

I don't think his family was insane, thats just his family's beliefs, and there is millions to take his place worldwide, yes many other 'paper' Canadians at home who would fill his shoes to slit my throat, all in the blink of a fat lady's eye.

Please stay bound in, and wrapped up in cotton wool, in your hippie world with those rose coloured glasses on, you'll be safe there.

Peace, live long and prosper ole chum.

OWDU

 

[meni0n]

FoverF,

Canadian rights stop right at the border of Canada. Once you leave Canada, you are at the mercy of the judicial system of the country you are in. Unless you have actual proof he was in a chicken cage being beaten or sleep deprived everyday of his stay in Guantanamo, then it's just rumour and hearsay. At 15, I knew the right from wrong and sure as hell knew the consequences if I killed someone. Going over to a country not of your origin, not wearing any uniform and killing someone, let alone a soldier will have serious consequences. He is lucky the Afghans didn't want to try him and send him to an Afghan prison, as he commited crimes in their country. He would have been wishing he was where he is now. He is breathing, eating and treated well. What human rights are being violated here? Considering his is accused of murder.

 

[a_majoor]

Uh.. a POW is only required to provide date of birth, rank and serial number in accord with the Geneva conventions. These guys aren't getting POW treatment, if they were it wouldn't be an issue, Omar would have been put in a camp with his peers and he'd be stuck there until someone negotiated for his release or the war came to an end.

Western nations have traditionally treated POWS very well since it opens the door for reciprocal treatment of our own troops. Not to mention the ethics of it. But when we label people terrorist and then throw them in places like Gitmo, were giving up the moral high ground.

In fairness organizations like Al-Qaeda are the ones who started it, they do the exact same thing they're just more degenerate about it. They label us infidels then chop off our heads.

But its in our best interests to treat these guys like POWS or guerrillas, then at least we can demand the same treatment for our own boys, god forbid they ever end up in such a circumstance.  :-\

I suggest people who think this way do a bit of research.

POW's are tightly defined by the Geneva convention (any version), and the prisoners in Gitmo do not fit the definition of POW in any way shape or form. (Go on, Google it; I'll wait).

As for "demanding the same treatment for our boys", you only have to look at the fate of anyone; local, civilian, foreign contractor, foreign diplomat or military; who comes under the control of the Jihadis to realize how far from reality that sort of demand is. A swift death is about the best they can hope for, the more likely fate is to star in a snuff video for Al Jezzera or one of the thousands of Jihadi websites that pollute the Internet. We were "treated" to some Taliban propaganda videos while at KAF, so I saw what "they" consider to be "proper" treatment of people in their power.

 

[Neill McKay]

Canadian rights stop right at the border of Canada. Once you leave Canada, you are at the mercy of the judicial system of the country you are in.

That's true.  However, the United States judicial system has, up to now, operated along lines similar to ours in that an accused person is tried in court without an unreasonable delay, and not simply thrown in jail.

What human rights are being violated here? Considering his is accused of murder.

The right to due process of the law -- a fair and speedy trial.  Accused murderers have that right in every civilized country on the planet, including the United States.

 

[2 Cdo]

I am sure they won't release the entire video.  They will go through it looking for anything "bad" that they can piece together to make it look like the poor little lad is being treated extremely bad and that he only gave his answers under extreme distress and threat of life. Personally I am beginning to think the idea of take no prisoners is sounding better and better everyday.

5 to 10 minutes out of a 8 hour tape showing him whining and crying. : Boo f*cking hoo. Also seen Dallaire on the news this morning with his usual rhetoric and nonsense. I find it hard to believe that useless oxygen thief was ever a leader of soldiers.

 

[2 Cdo]

Everyone who wants Khadr released always mentions that he was a Canadian citizen. Nobody ever mentions that the family has dual citizenship in some Arabic country (I honestly can't remember which one) and frequently travelled on the other passport. Maybe we should release him back to the other country whose passport was used to travel to terrorist training camps.

 

[meni0n]

That's true.  However, the United States judicial system has, up to now, operated along lines similar to ours in that an accused person is tried in court without an unreasonable delay, and not simply thrown in jail.

The right to due process of the law -- a fair and speedy trial.  Accused murderers have that right in every civilized country on the planet, including the United States.

He has not been jailed yet, he is awaiting trial. There has been thousands of people at the detention facility, which takes time to process. Legal proceedings have been dragged out but they started a while ago. His lawyers could have filed to dismiss charges on the grounds you mentioned so that point is moot. Would you prefer he would have stayed and be tried in the original country where he commited the crime or do you believe he's better off where he is right now?

 

[Edward Campbell]

First: while I share the general lack of sympathy for young Khadr and his family, both FoverF and Neil McKay raise important and valid points about basic civil/human rights and what I see as a worrisome lack of respect for those rights in the USA, right now.

Our rights only matter to the extent that we are willing to defend them for the most wretched and despised in our society. If Khadr's rights can be violated, for whatever reason, then ours are worthless.

With regard to consular access: here are the US rules - it appears that the US is disobeying its own rules.

Second: Mods - could this thread (which has little to do with Military Current Affairs & News, be merged with the Khadr thread in the Canadian Politics section, please?

 

[GAP]

Everyone who wants Khadr released always mentions that he was a Canadian citizen. Nobody ever mentions that the family has dual citizenship in some Arabic country (I honestly can't remember which one) and frequently travelled on the other passport. Maybe we should release him back to the other country whose passport was used to travel to terrorist training camps.

During the Khadr family interview a couple of years ago it was mentioned that they have serially have had to have their passports replaced 5 times because they were "lost"....and we don't even track who comes into the country.....

 

[2 Cdo]

During the Khadr family interview a couple of years ago it was mentioned that they have serially have had to have their passports replaced 5 times because they were "lost"....and we don't even track who comes into the country.....

I'm of the opinion that losing your passport once should involve an extremely lengthy interview with either the RCMP or CSIS. "Losing" it again should be dealt with by no further issue of a passport. Finding the "lost" passport in the possession of some undesirable trying to enter the country should result in jail time for both parties. Lastly, the Khadr family complete should be sent to some shithole anywhere outside of Canada never to set foot in our country ever again!

 

[tomahawk6]

First: while I share the general lack of sympathy for young Khadr and his family, both FoverF and Neil McKay raise important and valid points about basic civil/human rights and what I see as a worrisome lack of respect for those rights in the USA, right now.

Our rights only matter to the extent that we are willing to defend them for the most wretched and despised in our society. If Khadr's rights can be violated, for whatever reason, then ours are worthless.

With regard to consular access: here are the US rules - it appears that the US is disobeying its own rules.

Second: Mods - could this thread (which has little to do with Military Current Affairs & News, be merged with the Khadr thread in the Canadian Politics section, please?

According to the video he had consular access. What rights are being violated ? He gets three meals a day. He is in jail after all after attacking US troops he was shot and seriously wounded,this makes him an enemy combatant. Same as Johnny Lindh who as a US citizen got a 20 year sentence. All prisoners at Gitmo get the same basic rights.

 

[CountDC]

15 YEARS OLD!! I can't emphasize that enough.

This boy's father put a gun into his hands at 15 years of age and sent him off to fight, and people are acting like the kid is Rudolph f***ing Hess. No one on this board would allow this kid to play contact hockey without a visor, and yet he's been held indefinitely without trial, has been subject to some form(s) of torture, and looks to be spending probably the rest of his life in a hole, whether or not he even gets his secret military tribunal. For something he did in grade 9.

That is nothing short of a disgrace.

I don't support or encourage what he did, and I'm not recommending that my 13 year old brother fly off to Afghanistan and shoot at western soldiers. I'm not vouching for this guy's character, and I'm not saying that he can rejoin society as a contributing member. I also don't expect many on this board to have deep sympathy for him, given that he was actively trying to kill people in your line of work.

But I'll be damned before I advocate putting a 15 year old BOY in solitary confinement until he DIES. Especially when his 'war crime' is being in a firefight with occupying military forces without wearing a uniform. Ernst Kaltenbrunner was a war criminal. Radovan Karadzic is a war criminal. Khadr was a brainwashed junior high kid. If we ever catch Karadzic, how many nights do you think he'll have to sleep in the open on a cement pad in a chicken wire enclosure? 

If Alberta was overrun by an invading army of Islamic fundamentalists, intent on imposing the laws of their religion, and my father put a gun in my hands at 15 and told me to fight back, I probably would have done it in a heartbeat. Even if I wasn't living in Alberta at the time. You can all tear a strip up one side of me and down the other, but if I was in this kid's shoes, I probably would have done the exact same thing.

Stop trying to place our values and believes on this.  In his world he was not a boy - he was a man and a soldier out to prove to his father, family, friends, etc that he was one. He made the choice as a man to go to this other country he considered more important than Canada and fight. He was wearing the uniform of the force he joined - the everyday clothes that allow them to run and blend in with the locals. He made his choice as a man now he should live with it - not Canada. I am tired of people going outside Canada, making choices that get them into trouble and then crying for the Government to bail them out. This is a matter for the US and Afghan government to resolve not Canada.

 

[CountDC]

Uh.. a POW is only required to provide date of birth, rank and serial number in accord with the Geneva conventions. These guys aren't getting POW treatment, if they were it wouldn't be an issue, Omar would have been put in a camp with his peers and he'd be stuck there until someone negotiated for his release or the war came to an end.

Western nations have traditionally treated POWS very well since it opens the door for reciprocal treatment of our own troops. Not to mention the ethics of it. But when we label people terrorist and then throw them in places like Gitmo, were giving up the moral high ground.

In fairness organizations like Al-Qaeda are the ones who started it, they do the exact same thing they're just more degenerate about it. They label us infidels then chop off our heads.

But its in our best interests to treat these guys like POWS or guerrillas, then at least we can demand the same treatment for our own boys, god forbid they ever end up in such a circumstance.  :-\

Where is the WE in this - last I saw this was an AMERICAN thing not CANADIAN. We as Canadians do treat our POW's good - a lot better than they treat us. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

According to the video he had consular access. What rights are being violated ? He gets three meals a day. He is in jail after all after attacking US troops he was shot and seriously wounded,this makes him an enemy combatant. Same as Johnny Lindh who as a US citizen got a 20 year sentence. All prisoners at Gitmo get the same basic rights.

Not as I understand it - based upon what I have read/heard over the past couple of days. And I would be very happy to be corrected.

It appears (and those appearances may be Canadian officials covering their asses) consular access was denied. The DFAIT consular official who visited Khadr (the fellow who is heard on tape) was allowed in because he was listed as an intelligence officer. I hope that's wrong but, on the surface, it looks like the US denied consular access - contrary to its own rules.

 

[Edward Campbell]

By the way, the correct course of action for Canada is:

1. Await the outcome of the current legal process; and

2. Assuming Khadr is found guilty and sentenced to prison, repatriate him to a Canadian prison IAW the existing Canada/US agreement; or

3. If he is acquitted, allow him to return to Canada - he is, after all, a Canadian citizen; or

4. If he is convicted on some charges, sentenced, and then charged again with variations of the charges on which he was not convicted: demand his return to Canada to serve out his existing sentences.

 

[meni0n]

Why should he serve his time here when he is convicted over there? Let him serve it there.

 

[Neill McKay]

He has not been jailed yet,

He has been placed in some form of secure custody, whether we call it a jail, a prison, a camp, or a facility.  I don't think the name matters much for the purpose of this discussion.

he is awaiting trial.  There has been thousands of people at the detention facility, which takes time to process.  Legal proceedings have been dragged out but they started a while ago.

Six years, we're talking about.  There is an obligation on the part of the US justice system to move with a certain amount of despatch, whatever number of people there are to process.

Would you prefer he would have stayed and be tried in the original country where he commited the crime or do you believe he's better off where he is right now?

That's a very poor argument.  However much better off he is now, he's still being treated in a way that is inconsistent with the norms of a western justice system.  The fact that some countries have terrible justice systems (or none at all) does not justify a developed country ignoring any of its own long-standing principles.

What rights are being violated ? He gets three meals a day. He is in jail after all after attacking US troops he was shot and seriously wounded,this makes him an enemy combatant. Same as Johnny Lindh who as a US citizen got a 20 year sentence. All prisoners at Gitmo get the same basic rights.

What's different is that he's had no sentence because he hasn't been tried, for anything.