The Inevitable Debate on Half Masting

[vonGarvin]

Here one fellas, the CPC phoned (Yesterday) Saturday. The lady spoke to my wife about if she would join the CPC party and does she support the CPC. Well, my wife holds no punches. She blased the lady about the flag. And told her she would never vote for the PCs again. The lady just said who cares about the soldiers and what makes them special. My well spoken wife told her I was in the military, she was in and my daughter would be in Aug. The lady hungup. Traditions are OK, but to just to show support.

As a voter, I wouldn't hold it against the government for not lowering flags everytime a soldier, sailor airman or airwoman passes in the line of duty. It would lose its significance if it were to happen everytime, as was said by others here.  There is tradition, and there are ways to mourn, but a constant state of mourning is not what our country needs. 
My $0.02 worth

 

[M Feetham]

I've read the posts in this thread, although since this is a home computer, I can't read the canforgen. Haggis I think you have the right of it. My opinion for what it is worth is simply if the fallen troops units were to half mast for a period, that would be acceptable. The rest of the country doesn't need to. As for personal flags at home, it is up to the individual in my mind. I would most likely only half mast if I knew the individual personally. I think any thing else would be a little empty. Those are my thoughts, thanks for listening.
Feet

 

[geo]

Imagine the US if they adopted a policy of going half mast at the death of their soldiers who fall in operations..... the nation as a whole would have it's flag at half mast all year long..... which would defeat the purpose of making the act "a special thing".... and instoring a mentality of "perpetual state of mourning" which would definitively sap the morale of the military AND the population as a whole.

The decisions spelled out in the Canforgen make plenty of sense to me.

 

[Infanteer]

Haggis is bang on with his thoughts, but should he be saluted?   :tsktsk:

It's the closest thing to a "thumbs up" smiley that this board has - I used what I had to work with....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's kind of a stretch tying this in, but even the Legion somewhat follows this pattern. Vets die every day, but only the Branch that they belong to lowers their flag, not every Legion in Dominion Command.


Hey!! Who's this Infanteer guy???

 

[Sapper41]

I like the 'new' policy when it comes to lowering the flag on parliament hill.  To me it's very symbolic, at the local unit level we morn but at the national level we do not change our outward stance.  No taliban dirt bag is going to be rewarded by seeing our national flag lowered on the peace tower.  It's all about soldiering on and maintaining morale.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The flag on the Peace Tower, especially, and on most government buildings should be lowered to half mast only rarely: for the death of our head of state or a retired governor general, for example.  Not for politicians, not even for retired prime ministers, unless it is a state funeral.  We need not lower the flag for the deaths of foreign heads of state, including popes.

The flag should not be lowered to commemorate national calamities - in other words it should stay up on the anniversary of the Montreal Massacre.

The flags, all flags, on all government buildings should come down to half mast at 11:00 on 11 November, and they should stay down for the remainder day.

Individual departments and agencies, like DND, should be required to half mast the flags when their people die on service – that includes other flags in the precincts of parliament which should be lowered when MPs and senators die.

The flag on the peace tower is special – Canadians, the best Canadians, bar none, have been being killed in action for years and years.  They do not ask for national mourning and it should be reserved for the special day when we honour our nation’s absolute best: our war dead.

 

[Recce41]

It was during WW2 that the Flag remained half staff during the war. It was only raised on 1 July for those yrs. From my wife's point, it does not have to be every flag across Canada. Just it is a form of honour given to our friends. It's lowered for members of Parliament when they pass.
In Britain they lower the Union Jack at morning, then it is raised for their soldiers. I'll hunt down the picture from the London Telegraph, I get.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Can anyone confirm the following explanation for the origin of half-masting/staffing flags?:

(This only really applies to the navy, but....) When a death severely affected a ship's company, despite the best attempts by the XO, the mourning seamen could not concentrate well enough to do tiddley work and therefore sails, flags, et cetera were rigged messily.  Eventually, this disorder was ceremonialised into the half-masting of the flag.  This tradition seems to fit with other funereal notions like not shaving.

If this origin is correct, then it would seem that the most consistent application of the tradition would be to half-mast/staff in units affected most by the death (viz. the home unit, et al.).  The CANFORGEN seems to be consistent with this conclusion.

Regarding the idea that morale of the citisenry will drop with every half-staffed flag, I hate to go back to simplistic Clausewitzian conclusions, but it seems foolish to me not to realise that the policy-makers must see the deaths as worth the policy goals.  To worry about morale of the citisenry can be reduced to the conclusion that soldiers' deaths should not be reported lest parliament stops giving the crown money.  In a time when the CF is plagued by civilian ignorance (probably a plague of every generation but...) half-staffing gives at least a little information on part of the cost of a particular war.

 

[Haggis]

In a time when the CF is plagued by civilian ignorance (probably a plague of every generation but...) half-staffing gives at least a little information on part of the cost of a particular war.

Most Canadians get thier information from the media than from flags.  It's the MEDIA who are spinning this against the government of the day.

 

[Wookilar]

Like many others here, I agree with Haggis.

I, personally and professionally, like the direction given in the new CANFORGEN. It makes much more sense. I have been waging a running battle with some at my current unit (that are more important than I. Then again, who isn't more important right now?) on when the flag should be lowered. The directions given have taken away any possible strife inside our ranks, and solidarity inside the CF is so important.

The press and the politicals will make hay with the passing of our buds. That is, for better or worse, what politics and the press are all about during times of war. Anyone who thinks we are not used as political currency, dead or alive, is being a little naive.

 

[3rd Horseman]

The flag on the peace tower is lowered for the death of a Royal or head of state as it should be. The rest should go down out of respect. I went down yesterday to my Legion as the Sgt st Arms and lowered ours....out of respect, it did set the tone in the town. They will all remember them and think hard at their great sacrifice.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Seems more support for the "not for every single one" school...

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act (http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409 )

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/060423/n042379A.html

Highlights:

''Catherine Garrison, Halifax, whose 18-year-old son Chad has volunteered to go to Afghanistan early next year ... said she'd like to see the flags lowered across the country for combat casualties, but gave a more nuanced response to the saturated media coverage.  "The grieving process I think should be a private thing for the families of the individuals that have to suffer through it," said Garrison. "It certainly makes others aware of what's going on, but these are people's loved ones and the media and politicians have to respect that it's a great loss." ''

Lew MacKenzie ''said he was taken aback by full-page newspaper accounts Sunday screaming Death in the Desert and Day of Death in Afghanistan. "As a Patricia, you say to yourself, 'This is really going over the top,' ...  Those people who are sitting on the fence in their support for the mission - which they don't really understand - could well have their opinion affected by what's going on the last couple of days."

Cliff Chadderton ''said the Bush administration has made the same mistake as an earlier White House with Vietnam, attempting to suppress information while it has brazened out the Iraq conflict at heavy public price.  "In the Canadian government, we have done the opposite ... Let's OK sending troops to Afghanistan - but if there are casualties, let's play it up as a national disaster. Well, it is a disaster, but it's not a national disaster.  Just simply tell the public the truth, instead of all this play-acting and 'should we put the flag at half staff or not." ''

David Rudd, Cdn Inst of Strat. Studies:  ''If you have a tragedy like this and the government reacts to it with a shrug - saying, 'well, there's going to be more of that to come' - that doesn't do much to solidify or maintain existing public support for the mission ...But by the same token, you don't want to drift into a state of self-analysis or self-flagellation every time there's a casualty.''

BTW, here's the rules according to Heritage Canada:
http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/occasion_e.cfm

 

[Franko]

IMO, there is no need to bring the flag at half mast everytime a comrade is killed.

The real remembering occurs in the mess over a beer, or when reminiscing with buddies over old times.

Not when people drive by parliament hill and see the flag down.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Regards

 

[WayneDraper]

I do not agree not having the flags lowered in Ottawa when ever any of our Military are killed in the field.  They gave their live for their country.  What is your opinion ???

 

[Strike]

Wayne, read all the posts.  I think the opinion is pretty clear.

 

[241]

I agree with the "Only the home unit/City (theres and the units)" but as well as the unit they where serving with ie: Task Force Afghanistan (I beleive thats what they are calling it), and if that and Rememberance day is not enough for the general public then perhaps a National Day of Mourning for the "Mission/War" type of thing.

 

[a_majoor]

To me, the most disgusting thing about this "story" is how people who wouldn't give us the time of day in the 1990s (i.e. the CBC, Liberal and NDP party) are suddenly so concerned about "not showing respect for the soldiers" and making other noises as if they were our comrades in arms.

Well, I am going to take what comes out of their mouths as another cause of global warmning, and pay my respects on November 11 to all my forbearers and comrades in arms along with the rest of you.

 

[Bart Nikodem]

<sarcasm on>This has motivated me to contact my city hall to demand they stop half masting the city flag every time a police officer or firefighter dies in the line of duty as it only encourages criminals and fires. <sarcasm off>
Seriously though, if it's mandatory to half mast the Peace Tower flag when a serving High Commissioner, Ambassador or Senator dies in Canada, it should be mandatory for soldiers in the line of duty.
If Recce41 is right and the flag was half-masted during WW2, we should see how much of an effect that had on operations in Europe, so we can understand wether it would have an affect on the insurgents in Afghanistan.
All the best,
Bart

 

[Michael Dorosh]

It was during WW2 that the Flag remained half staff during the war. It was only raised on 1 July for those yrs.

Where does this come from?