The Great Gun Control Debate

[Dennis Ruhl]

It has taken me a few years but I may have figured out what happened at Mayerthorpe where the 4 Mounties were killed.  They must have done a firearms registry search and upon finding that Roszko had no firearms stood around with their hands in their pockets.  Just shows how useful the registry is.

 

[George Wallace]

It has taken me a few years but I may have figured out what happened at Mayerthorpe where the 4 Mounties were killed.  They must have done a firearms registry search and upon finding that Roszko had no firearms stood around with their hands in their pockets.  Just shows how useful the registry is.

Yeah.  Sure.  This is Alberta.  Slap your "Toronto" head and rethink that.

 

[Kat Stevens]

DR lives in AB, or at least has at some point.  If he's got a Toronto head, it ain't on his shoulders.

 

[J.J]

It has taken me a few years but I may have figured out what happened at Mayerthorpe where the 4 Mounties were killed.  They must have done a firearms registry search and upon finding that Roszko had no firearms stood around with their hands in their pockets.  Just shows how useful the registry is.

That must be one of the classiest statements I have ever heard..... :

If I comment any further I would get a much deserved trip up the warning ladder.

 

[ballz]

It certainly wasn't the classiest way to state his point but whenever I read about the police chiefs uniting with support for the registry, I always think of the point he just made.

If they want to pay a visit to a small house in a nice neighborhood and look up the registry and it says the guy owns a hunting rifle, are they going to send in a SWAT team to speak to him?

And if they want to execute a warrent on a couple of known gangmembers in some sketchy neighborhood, and they look it up in the registry and it shows the person doesn't have a firearm registered, are they just gonna leave their sidearms in the car?


So really, what does the registry change for them?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It certainly wasn't the classiest way to state his point but whenever I read about the police chiefs uniting with support for the registry, I always think of the point he just made.

If they want to pay a visit to a small house in a nice neighborhood and look up the registry and it says the guy owns a hunting rifle, are they going to send in a SWAT team to speak to him?And if they want to execute a warrent on a couple of known gangmembers in some sketchy neighborhood, and they look it up in the registry and it shows the person doesn't have a firearm registered, are they just gonna leave their sidearms in the car?


So really, what does the registry change for them?

That happens more than you think. It allows them to up the calls for the teams which gives them a bigger budget and prove them as a needed and useful tool. If the guy has more than a couple of guns, they'll have the press there while they take them out of the house "for safe keeping", showing his house and usually giving the street, setting him up for a home invasion down the line. Then the obligatory PR conference the next day when they put all his guns out on the table for the press  and for everyone to see. The press release by the Public Affairs cop is read and a scoped deer rifle becomes a high powered sniper rifle, more than three guns becomes an arsenal and two bricks of .22 become THOUSANDS of rounds of deadly cop killer ammunition. Not every town is like this but it becoming more of the norm than the exception.

 

[ballz]

Soooo... what you're saying is the gun registry does help make a positive difference? ;D

That's a sad story RG... way to put a damper on my night...

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Not every town is like this but it becoming more of the norm than the exception.

Pretty sure that hasn't happened here. 

Mr. Ruhl- You are generally articulate and can present a point well when you chose to.  I have to believe that you could have made some sort of metaphorical comment against the registry without invoking a painful memory to all officers of that brutal event and then making such a farcical suggestion as to create a picture of them standing around being killed "with their hands in their pockets".  Bad form and poorly thought through. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Pretty sure that hasn't happened here. 

I can't recall it either, but it seems to happen regularly, the closer you get to Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal or Vancouver. The centres where the unblinking, gullible sheeple believe the words of the press and politicians as gospel and without question.

 

[KnightShift]

Pretty sure that hasn't happened here. 

Does happen in Ontario though, the Jonathan Login Case is a prime example:

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/r_v_login_2006_oncj_51.html

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Does happen in Ontario though, the Jonathan Login Case is a prime example:

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/r_v_login_2006_oncj_51.html

A prime example of what?  The system ended up working for him and he got his weapons back and charges dismissed:

277.        I will hear counsel with respect to a motion to dismiss and an order for the return of all property seized.

Probably was a bad day for buddy, but since the police were given bad info that had public safety implications they had to act on it.  We also don't know what was said by the gun owner or what his family was doing at the scene.  As for the subsequent search and seizure, it would appear that the Court felt it was a bit much and he got his property back.  You really want the police putzing around, asking questions about every single potentiality when there is an armed individual out and about at your kids soccer game? 

I dunno, maybe box traps to catch "varmint" around the school yard?  Just throwin' that out there...

In any case, I don't see how that example has anything to do with the LGR. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I can't recall it either, but it seems to happen regularly, the closer you get to Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal or Vancouver. The centres where the unblinking, gullible sheeple believe the words of the press and politicians as gospel and without question.

Methinks you need to live closer to these "centres" and you just might find out there no different from the folks in Windsor.........................your dick comparing doesn't help your argument.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sorry Bruce. Firearms policy in Canada is driven by disingenuous politicians and special interest groups from the large urban centres. The same people that spout lies and disinformation are supported by people that vote by the latest feel good speech or article from the local rag that defines the little bubble they live in.

Every community has them, I agree. The disproportionate amount of people that vote, ignorant of the truth, come from the centres mentioned, and unfortunately drive policy for the rest of the country.

 

[Old Sweat]

You do know that Ottawa is represented by four CPC, two Liberal and one NDP MP? Also the 613 area code (Eastern Ontario) except for Ottawa and Kingston is largely rural or small city/town and only has one NDP and three Liberal held seats along with a hockey sock full of Tories.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Does happen in Ontario though, the Jonathan Login Case is a prime example:

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/r_v_login_2006_oncj_51.html

I remember hearing about this and wondering what the outcome was? Now I know.

This illustrates a problem with our media in that they hype stories like this to high-heaven. The public hears about some gun-carrying crazy guy running around by the schoolyard. They never hear about the guy getting off because the media doesn't follow-up. Let alone the fact that the cops over-reacted. No wonder the public has a bad image of gun owners.

** Did a Google search on Jonathan Login and the only MSM article I could find was by Mark Bonokoski in the Toronto Sun.The only other articles were in a couple of gun/sporting websites.

 

[KnightShift]

A prime example of what?  The system ended up working for him and he got his weapons back and charges dismissed:

My apologies, I should have been more specific.  I meant it as a reference to what could be perceived to be an over reaction by the law enforcement personnel involved.  That being said, I'd like to offer this disclaimer before I continue to explain my position.  I am not law enforcement ( I have a tremendous amount of respect for LEO's, and I have applied to a few police services myself, can't seem to get by that colour blindness test though).  Also, I can't even begin to imagine what is going through someones head when they get a call to go check out a "firearms call at a school".  I would think it would be a rather alarming and nerve wracking thing to respond to.  However, I am still of the opinion that dragging someones family out of their home, and strip searching the person in question in their front yard is a bit of an over reaction if they already have that person under control.  It did work out for him in the end, and he did get his weapons firearms back, however, it still doesn't seem right considering he was well within his rights to be hunting where he was (I will concede that perhaps a little more initiative on Mr. Logins part may have been warranted, such as letting local law enforcement know that he'd be hunting within view of a school or any other public/semi-public place that he could be seen from).  Still, he was on private property, with the landowners permission (and at the landowners request), and he did pack it in when he saw the kids at the school.  I'd be willing to bet that his family was fairly traumatized by how he was treated when he was arrested and searched, and although I'm fairly certain a "gun call" requires a certain amount of force to be used, It doesn't sound like the level of force used was necessary.


(To add to my disclaimer, I wasn't there.  I am basing my opinion on what is to the best of my knowledge an official recorded account of the incident in question. )

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You do know that Ottawa is represented by four CPC, two Liberal and one NDP MP? Also the 613 area code (Eastern Ontario) except for Ottawa and Kingston is largely rural or small city/town and only has one NDP and three Liberal held seats along with a hockey sock full of Tories.

I am not saying all people are stupid, nor that every politician has an anti gun agenda. I'm saying that these centres, whether due to population, political bent or misplaced passion seem to have a disproportionate amount of anti gun people. People that look at skewed information and refuse to accept reasoned discussion and fact.

A good example is someone saying they are scared of guns, don't like them and no one should have them. Ask them if they are afraid to stand next to a cop. In most cases they'll say no. Simplistically, it is not the gun they are afraid of, it is now the person holding it. As it should be, but they still can't shake the attitude that guns kill, not people.

I'm just saying that the deeper you go into the urban jungle (and I am not argueing urban vs rural) the more ingrained that attitude that an inanimate object (firearm) has a mind and physical being in and of itself that makes it capable of killing without the outside influence of a person and if we ban guns the killing will stop.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

A prime example of what?  The system ended up working for him and he got his weapons back and charges dismissed:
 

And that's great, the system, with all it's flaws still works sometimes. However, in the end what did it cost him and his family in legal fees, time and angst? Many people in similar situations without the means, would simply roll over and take the plea bargain, likely losing their property and gaining a lifelong prohibition on firearms.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I am not saying all people are stupid, nor that every politician has an anti gun agenda. I'm saying that these centres, whether due to population, political bent or misplaced passion seem to have a disproportionate amount of anti gun people. People that look at skewed information and refuse to accept reasoned discussion and fact.

There is also the factor that there are likely far more shootings that make the news in the news in the big cities, so the people are more attuned to the issue of firearms violence vs firearms ownership.  Thank goodness our local rag can't report much.  God forbid that the good folks of Windsor know that there have been at least six shootings in the west end this year (gotta get these bad guys to shoot straight!)

 

[Ex-SHAD]

So I never understood why Canadian Civil Rights activists aren’t beating down the doors of the Parliament of Canada, demanding that the government repeal Canada’s draconian firearms laws, and replace them with a more common sense right to keep and bear arms style legislation. When you consider the issue of firearms ownership, it’s as much of a civil right as the right to vote, the right of freedom of expression, and the right to assembly.