The Great Gun Control Debate
- Thread starter Jarnhamar
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Limpy
Guest
So what are some thoughts on gun control this election. If the Tories get there minority gov. will they get rid of just the registry or some of the adjoining rules as well. Rules like you need a Possesion and Acquisition or Possesion Only just to pick up a rifle or shotgun to be legal whereas once a valid hunting licence would have sufficed :rocket:.
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Yip, over a billion bucks pisssed down the toilet, and just think where that money could have been put to good use. Wont Wendy Cukier be on the anti-gun warpath again! Alan Rock, eat your heart out!
When this law flounders it will echo in the guncontrol world, and I look forard to what the SSSA (our NFA) here will have to say. lets hope it can influence the draconian gun laws here too.
Cheers,
Wes
When this law flounders it will echo in the guncontrol world, and I look forard to what the SSSA (our NFA) here will have to say. lets hope it can influence the draconian gun laws here too.
Cheers,
Wes
- Reaction score
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(gives new meaning to the Roman saying "love me, love my dog" ...)
Friendly dog halted killing spree
By NOAH LOVE
TORONTO (CP) - A man who told police he was bent on going on a murderous rampage believed people in his native New Brunswick were nice, so he planned to gun down people in Toronto instead - until a friendly dog changed his mind about the city's residents.
The man drove from the Maritimes with a carload of guns and ammunition intending to kill as many people in Toronto as he could, he told police. But a last-minute encounter with a woman and her dogs in a lakefront park convinced him Torontonians are nice too.
"He wanted to start a killing spree," said Det. Sgt. Bernadette Button. "He didn't indicate why, but (did say) that the people in the Maritimes were nice so he thought he'd come up to Toronto."
By chance, he encountered a woman walking her two dogs.
"One of the dogs approached him and it was playful and they got into a bit of a tug-of-war," Button said.
"He decided that the people in Toronto were nice and he didn't want to continue with his operational plan."
James Stanson, 43, was charged with eight weapons-related offences after a man surrendered to police Wednesday in front of a supermarket in the peaceful east-end neighbourhood known as the Beaches.
Stanson, wearing a scruffy light-brown jacket, appeared in court Thursday afternoon after being examined by a psychiatrist. A scruffy beard and moustache obscured lacerations on his round face.
Justice Richard Schneider ruled the accused would undergo further psychiatric assessment before June 30 and appear again in court for a progress report on July 14. At that time, the court will decide whether Stanson is mentally fit to stand trial.
Stanson was also remanded to the hospital unit of a Toronto jail so that he can be placed under suicide watch.
Police said a man had a loaded gun in his pocket and a car crammed with more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition and had intended to start firing in the park on a sunny summer afternoon.
The man was a dog owner and his car was packed with doggie blankets and a big plastic dog dish still filled with dry kibble. Police said he had left his own dog in New Brunswick.
Stanson lived in a small, white bungalow that he bought in Wood Point, N.B., three years ago, ATV News reported Thursday.
He lived alone there with as many as five dogs at one point.
A former neighbour, Marion Daye, told ATV News she didn't like Stanson, but said it was obvious he loved animals.
"You knew he loved dogs because they were always with him," she said.
Gladys Wood described him as friendly, but on his own terms.
". . . he'd go in somebody's yard and take his dogs in, let them run all over their garden, whatever," Wood said.
"When he was asked to leave, he'd stand there, do strange things, and laugh at you."
After visiting the Toronto park, the man, who police described as mentally ill, drove around the city looking for a police officer.
Const. Fraser Douglas, 25, was responding to a shoplifting call in front of the nearby supermarket when the man drove up behind his cruiser and honked his horn.
"He asked the officer who he approached for (psychiatric) help, or he was going to do something serious," Button said.
At that point, the man said he had intended to go on a shooting rampage.
Officers tallied the cache Wednesday night, counting carton after carton of bullets.
The list included: a 12-gauge shotgun, a bolt-action rifle with a telescopic lens, a 9-mm semi-automatic, a machete, throwing knife, camouflage ski mask, black leather gloves, and 6,296 rounds of ammunition.
Police said all the firearms were legally purchased.
Stanson told neighbours in New Brunswick that he once worked as a corrections officer in Ontario and was bitter about his experiences there, ATV News reported.
Police say they have a dog to thank, but do not know the identity of the pet's owner.
Helen Stanson of Guelph, Ont., said she believed her nephew was in Toronto seeking medical help for a heart condition.
A blood vessel in the heart was expanding rapidly and required surgery, she said. "He was a walking time bomb."
Friendly dog halted killing spree
By NOAH LOVE
TORONTO (CP) - A man who told police he was bent on going on a murderous rampage believed people in his native New Brunswick were nice, so he planned to gun down people in Toronto instead - until a friendly dog changed his mind about the city's residents.
The man drove from the Maritimes with a carload of guns and ammunition intending to kill as many people in Toronto as he could, he told police. But a last-minute encounter with a woman and her dogs in a lakefront park convinced him Torontonians are nice too.
"He wanted to start a killing spree," said Det. Sgt. Bernadette Button. "He didn't indicate why, but (did say) that the people in the Maritimes were nice so he thought he'd come up to Toronto."
By chance, he encountered a woman walking her two dogs.
"One of the dogs approached him and it was playful and they got into a bit of a tug-of-war," Button said.
"He decided that the people in Toronto were nice and he didn't want to continue with his operational plan."
James Stanson, 43, was charged with eight weapons-related offences after a man surrendered to police Wednesday in front of a supermarket in the peaceful east-end neighbourhood known as the Beaches.
Stanson, wearing a scruffy light-brown jacket, appeared in court Thursday afternoon after being examined by a psychiatrist. A scruffy beard and moustache obscured lacerations on his round face.
Justice Richard Schneider ruled the accused would undergo further psychiatric assessment before June 30 and appear again in court for a progress report on July 14. At that time, the court will decide whether Stanson is mentally fit to stand trial.
Stanson was also remanded to the hospital unit of a Toronto jail so that he can be placed under suicide watch.
Police said a man had a loaded gun in his pocket and a car crammed with more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition and had intended to start firing in the park on a sunny summer afternoon.
The man was a dog owner and his car was packed with doggie blankets and a big plastic dog dish still filled with dry kibble. Police said he had left his own dog in New Brunswick.
Stanson lived in a small, white bungalow that he bought in Wood Point, N.B., three years ago, ATV News reported Thursday.
He lived alone there with as many as five dogs at one point.
A former neighbour, Marion Daye, told ATV News she didn't like Stanson, but said it was obvious he loved animals.
"You knew he loved dogs because they were always with him," she said.
Gladys Wood described him as friendly, but on his own terms.
". . . he'd go in somebody's yard and take his dogs in, let them run all over their garden, whatever," Wood said.
"When he was asked to leave, he'd stand there, do strange things, and laugh at you."
After visiting the Toronto park, the man, who police described as mentally ill, drove around the city looking for a police officer.
Const. Fraser Douglas, 25, was responding to a shoplifting call in front of the nearby supermarket when the man drove up behind his cruiser and honked his horn.
"He asked the officer who he approached for (psychiatric) help, or he was going to do something serious," Button said.
At that point, the man said he had intended to go on a shooting rampage.
Officers tallied the cache Wednesday night, counting carton after carton of bullets.
The list included: a 12-gauge shotgun, a bolt-action rifle with a telescopic lens, a 9-mm semi-automatic, a machete, throwing knife, camouflage ski mask, black leather gloves, and 6,296 rounds of ammunition.
Police said all the firearms were legally purchased.
Stanson told neighbours in New Brunswick that he once worked as a corrections officer in Ontario and was bitter about his experiences there, ATV News reported.
Police say they have a dog to thank, but do not know the identity of the pet's owner.
Helen Stanson of Guelph, Ont., said she believed her nephew was in Toronto seeking medical help for a heart condition.
A blood vessel in the heart was expanding rapidly and required surgery, she said. "He was a walking time bomb."
A
ags281
Guest
At least he had the presence of mind to turn himself in.
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Here in Sydney awhile back, a child with a daisy bb gun who shot a local boy in the bum was branded a SNIPER ('sniper shoots boy in park') on the front pages of the papers the next day.
At least this nutter is in the hands of the police now, and I hate it when the guns are legally obtained by these people. Goes to show ya the nutters can get thru too.
Cheers,
Wes
At least this nutter is in the hands of the police now, and I hate it when the guns are legally obtained by these people. Goes to show ya the nutters can get thru too.
Cheers,
Wes
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Unfortunately, it is typical of the anti-gun lobby to flock to instances like these for sensationalism.
Funny, when you see a car thief crash and wipe out a family in its minivan during a pursuit, you don't see calls for eliminating cars.
Deranged people will find ways to kill bystanders. If you look at the weapons the police seized, you'll see they are mostly hunting pieces; shotguns and long-guns. So now what, they will ban hunting rifles? As well, was there any mention of whether this man was a licenced gun owner who had registered his rifles? Wouldn't that be a great bit for proponents of the gun registry....
Funny, when you see a car thief crash and wipe out a family in its minivan during a pursuit, you don't see calls for eliminating cars.
Deranged people will find ways to kill bystanders. If you look at the weapons the police seized, you'll see they are mostly hunting pieces; shotguns and long-guns. So now what, they will ban hunting rifles? As well, was there any mention of whether this man was a licenced gun owner who had registered his rifles? Wouldn't that be a great bit for proponents of the gun registry....
Gunnar
Army.ca Veteran
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Actually, yes in some articles I read there was such a mention. The weapons were correctly registered, but had had the trigger locks removed when they were put in the truck of his car. He had licenses, registration, and lots of ammo. So he's being charged with things like "Improper storage" & etc., since he didn't actually KILL anyone. But a psychiatric investigation has been ordered by the judge.
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Sarcasm aside, though, I hope someone in the media points that out. Proof positive that it won't stop crime...
Incidentally, if that registry hits $2 billion like I've heard, and you pay the average cop $50,000 a year, that boondoggle would have paid for 4,000 cops for ten years. Imagine the dent that would have put in crime....
Incidentally, if that registry hits $2 billion like I've heard, and you pay the average cop $50,000 a year, that boondoggle would have paid for 4,000 cops for ten years. Imagine the dent that would have put in crime....
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
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More police are not necessarily the answer. Make some inquiries into what's going on in your local courts and corrections facilities. Do you believe all are being tried in a timely fashion and serving the sentences they deserve?
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Good point. The whole "more police" line is piece of political rabble-rousing to earn votes.
Policing is largely a reactive measure concerned with crime and punishment. Break the law, you will be caught and forced to face the consequences.
The whole purpose of gun control is largely preemptive; restrict and control the access to firearms and people will be unable to commit crimes with them. No amount of police on the street would have stopped this guy from getting out of his vehicle and killing people. Unfortunately, I think an inefficient government registry that targets legal owners is simply not the best way to go about things.
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]quote]Here in Sydney awhile back, a child with a daisy bb gun who shot a local boy in the bum was branded a SNIPER ('sniper shoots boy in park') on the front pages of the papers the next day.
I thought that getting hit in the bum with a paintball hurt a lot. And it hurts alot.
I thought that getting hit in the bum with a paintball hurt a lot. And it hurts alot.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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Infanteer said:
You're still not going back farther enough into the problem. How about raising kids in an environement where they are responsible for their actions and have respect for their peers, their elders, and their community?
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You're not being realistic enough. Of course the ideal society would look that way, but how are we to go about implementing it. There will always be criminals and lunatics; we must work in the context of migitating the damage they can do rather than thinking we can wish them away.
L
Limpy
Guest
A billion dollars blown to hell, and it still wouldn't have stopped the man from going on a rampage had he wanted to. But I especially loved the part about where it said the guns were legally owned. Shove that it your pipe and smoke it Ann Macellan, Alan Rock etc. No registry can tell wether someone is mentally ill or about to become mentally ill, nor can it tell if your a criminal. What next, Nerf Gun registry? :soldier: :fifty: :mg: :sniper: :gunner: :akimbo: :cam: :rocket: :tank: :flame:
Hi, me and some friends would just like to register :threat:
our guns!
Hi, me and some friends would just like to register :threat:
our guns!
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Maybe not for eliminating cars but the fact that it has a licence plate and is registered sure goes a long way towards solving who, where, when , why and how. No one ever said the registry would stop gun crime[if they do they're full of %#$@] but just be another tool for law enforcement. Though yes I know it was implemented wrong and cost waaaay too much, the premise is still a good one.Infanteer said:
As for this nut with a rather large arsenal, I highly doubt he would have shot anyone. My, albeit non-expert opinion, is that he would have chickened out after he fired the first shot or even before that point. I even wonder if that dog existed. If a dog was all that was needed for him to see what he was doing was wrong, I don't see him shooting anyone. Although it is possible that if he did get one shot off it could have hit someone, but he'd probably be shaking so much that he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
As for the gun registry. I don't think its purpose was to prevent crimes like these... if it was then the people who crafted the law were total morons (well, they were politicans... but I digress), a system like this is more useful after the fact.
And I've seen that the Organization of Cheifs of Police (or whatever its called) supports the registry, and when it comes to things like these I'd go with them rather than a politican.
On a side note, i'm kinda curious as to where the Alliance got its figure of the regiistry costing 2 billion dollars? Everything I can come up with puts it at an estimated 1 billion by the end of FY2004.
As for the gun registry. I don't think its purpose was to prevent crimes like these... if it was then the people who crafted the law were total morons (well, they were politicans... but I digress), a system like this is more useful after the fact.
And I've seen that the Organization of Cheifs of Police (or whatever its called) supports the registry, and when it comes to things like these I'd go with them rather than a politican.
On a side note, i'm kinda curious as to where the Alliance got its figure of the regiistry costing 2 billion dollars? Everything I can come up with puts it at an estimated 1 billion by the end of FY2004.
L
Limpy
Guest
"And I've seen that the Organization of Cheifs of Police (or whatever its called) supports the registry, and when it comes to things like these I'd go with them rather than a politican"
quote]
That however is the Cheifs of Police. I have spoken to many plain constables, the officers on the front lines and they say it is a nightmare for average officers to enforce.
quote]
That however is the Cheifs of Police. I have spoken to many plain constables, the officers on the front lines and they say it is a nightmare for average officers to enforce.
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Sheerin said:
Well, thats speculation. I'm going to guess that you've never met the guy, aren't a psychiatrist, and are only basing your judgement on this single article. Nobody here can guess what the guys real intentions were.
Ok, what is its purpose? About the only thing I can come up with is that if there's a incident, I'm already being investigated, and I happen to have a similar firearm as that used in the crime, then it provides some evidence (which is questionable at any rate). Not a bad idea, I agree, but this incident does point out that having registered guns doesn't really help things.
True enough, but as Limpy pointed out, these aren't the beat cops. The Chiefs are bureaucrats whose job it is to play politics with the police force. Also, the question isn't whether they support it, its whether or not its effective. I'd be curious to see some info on how and when the gun registry is being used, and some numbers on how its being used.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/02/13/gunregistry_rdi040213
I've been curious about that too. They're all estimates anyways, so we won't know the real cost until the Auditor General releases a final report on the matter. The $1 billion estimate was released in December 2002, and the $2 billion estimate is as of a few months ago... I don't know if its an updated figure, or if its just doing some new math on the numbers to make a point. Either way, wasn't it supposed to cost a couple million?
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