The Great Gun Control Debate

[1feral1]

.... But the real responsibility must lie with criminal intent and use, not lawful possession.   Punish the criminal, not the citizen.

If only Tom, sadly we have to deal with the snivel libertairans and the Wendy Cukiers out there, who have a blind rage against all firearms. A small minority of people who seem to get caught up in a one sided media circus, yet out west, in say Sasakatchewan, the provincial government refuses to enforce many of the new gun laws, and at least know and understand what the majority local people feel.

I used to have quite a gun collection when I lived in the prairies, and although it was a good hobby and passtime, it was also an investment, which for many years prospered, but when in the early 90's with the mag laws, re-registeration, and changes of classification,   the majority of my 'bad' guns value dropped beyond all hope, and when I sold off in 1994, some I could not even sell for a pittance, and ended up going to museum for tax donations. So there went my investment, thousands of dollars out of pocket, all because of a knee-jerk reaction to a problem which could have been better addressed through other avenues of education and responsibility. Question: Am I still bitter about the Cdn federal government and my situation over 10 yrs ago? You better bloody believe it. Skidmarks (like on your boxer shorts) of personalities like Alan Rock and the like, legally robbed thousands upon thousands of law abiding TAX PAYING Canadians of their property and legal passtimes and hobbies.

As we all know the political future of Canada always is decided in Ontario and Quebec as thats where the population base is, and yet for the life of me, I cannot understand HOW and WHY those spineless Liberals keep getting re-elected.

Unfortunatly there is nothing we can do except a large scale of civil disobedience, but its already in the cards for Canadians who LEGALLY own guns, that one day, sooner than later, this will come to an abrupt end, and the only gun owners in Canada will be Police, some security agencies and the CF, not to forget our criminal element who will continue to prosper in their use and trade of illegal firearms, and them not having to fear when they do a B&E or home invasion of being challenged by the owner who sadly cannot even defend himself or his family. This on the news here all to often, women being pistol whipped by theives, raped sometimes killed, then their house is robbed. Its an increasing way of life ( brought on by some ethnic cultures of hate, guns and violence and their values opposed to generic Australian ones) in Sydney alone. I am simply calling like it is, so no race cards please.

Its the criminal activity which sadly the law abiding guns owners have paid the price for here in Australia. with Croats shooting Serbs, Muslims shooting Christians, Koreans extorting businesses, Vietnamese and Chinese drug lords, cricky waht ever happend to the Aussie bloke with with a sawn off .22 bolt action rifle. Its all R4's AKs and glock pistols, and even thewse crims outgun the police in many ways. The times truly have changed and the worn has turned for the worse.Quite frankly I feel bloody lucky to be now living in Queensland, where the gun laws are more relaxed compaired to Vicv and NSW, and the polpualion base is still mainstream Australian with tradional values still in place. Sure bris-vegas has its problems, but it's different than Sydney.

A gun show in Brisbane is like a gun show in western Canada in the 90s (shy of semi-auto rifles). althjough i own no guns here, I sure still enjoy the greater freedom here rather in NSW, where its much more toned down, and all to be politically corrrect.
Pretty sad affair overall.

Next they'll be coming for your bayonet collection, then your steak knives and scissors.

Regards,

Wes

 

[Torlyn]

Another one of those "Lets get a bunch of elected lawyers to pass a bad law so the supreme court can tell us what it really says" laws.

And after they've been lawyering for a while, let's appoint them to that Supreme Court... 

T

 

[TCBF]

"Next they'll be coming for your bayonet collection, then your steak knives and scissors"

Saturday is our last legal you-can-take-your-FN-to-the-range-and-shoot-it-day.

My wife, son, brother in law and I are taking my 8L FN C1A1 (with the EX stock) to the range.  I have 280 rds of Portuguese FNM ball that is seeking Ammo Nirvana.

Will take photos for posterity.  Will post'em.

Tom.

 

[1feral1]

"Saturday is our last legal you-can-take-your-FN-to-the-range-and-shoot-it-day.

My wife, son, brother in law and I are taking my 8L FN C1A1 (with the EX stock) to the range.   I have 280 rds of Portuguese FNM ball that is seeking Ammo Nirvana.

Will take photos for posterity.   Will post'em.

Tom.

Is that a Canada wide thing? Were you notified by letter or adds in the paper? What province do ya live in?

Thats pretty limp wristed isn't it.

Frankly I am at a loss of words, yet I am not suprised the ways things are going there. I don't know what one can do, but write your MP, and stay in comms with the NFA or similar organisations.

Pump a '5rd' mag thru one for me, I had an 8L, an ex-OPP rifle, she was a beaut, bought it out of Collectors Source out of Ontario back in about 1987 for about $850, sold it totally kitted out with all EIS one could muster for $750.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[muskrat89]

Limited money - do you want to register all 16,000,000 guns in Canada (7,000,000 registered so far), or just register the 250,000 offenders who are banned using them?  Where is the choke point, the item, or the ilegal user?  We are shutting down RCMP crime labs to fund the duck gun registry.

Tom - I think you are onto something with this. Maybe the best way to defeat pedophiles is to register all children, restrict and regulate their movement and storage, and even require parents to pass a background check before creating any..

 

[TCBF]

"Tom - I think you are onto something with this. Maybe the best way to defeat pedophiles is to register all children,"

Soon I bet, All will be fingerprinted at school fot their own "safety".  As it is, it is voluntary now.

Wes:  Yes, all 8000 FNs in Canada, plus all non 12 (6) Prohibited can no longer be fired.

Bought my 2 8L s for about 1200 each same place in 1986.  Ex OPP.  Prices last month were listed as $1600 for a Cdn 8L, and $750 for an L1A1.  I have 3 L1A1s and 2 C1s.  Was $5000, now scrap.

C_cksuckers.

Tom

 

[CH1]

Praise the Lord & pass the ammo! Don't forget the flechette rnds  in the back of the armoury (definitively banned by convention). As far as I'm concerned, the proponents of this piece of garbage called gun control have all volunteered for MTR (1 pace forward). As I have stated before, the preamble to the original salvos state that the intent is not crime control, but control of what Revenue Canada defines as Mr. & Mrs. Taxpayer (an entity not recognised by the courts & law).

As for Mr. Rock, Ms. Campbell, Ms. Cukier & other wanna be bereaucrats, They float to the level of their incompetence.

This country has developed a need to pander  to small special interest groups (see Gomery inquiry).

For those that have not noticed, those of us that are born & raised here, do not really matter. Immigration has been linked to votes by the politicians. It is easier to get a vote by importing crime along with a very few good people.

It is also easier for a politician to use a sledge hammer to fix a swiss watch, rather than tighten the loose screws. The politicians tend to over react to any situation that they feel they are not in control of. Look at what is happening in the political forum. Graft & corruption at almost all levels, self indulgence, etc.

Politicians have forgoten who signs the front side of the pay cheque.

Going back to Ms. Campbell (& not wanting to rekindle bad memories) but Somalia rests squarely with her faulty mission statement & other blunders. Her reward for screwing up, a diplomatic posting to the US, followed by her appointment as a professor to a US university. Oddly enough political science.

Oh well I've used up several billion $ more of forum for my musings.

 

[redleafjumper]

I received my letter from Mr. Baker (Commissioner of Firearms) the beginning of this week telling me that my prohibs can no longer be taken to the range.   I had earlier understood that the Special Authority to Possess (SAPs) were not affected, but apparently this is not the case.   Now I am in the same boat with my collection of FN's among my other 12(3), 12(5) and (so far ok) 12(6) stuff.    It is quite useful to write a letter to MP Garry Breitkreuz at House of Commons, Parliament Buildings, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 and give him some more ammo to fight these liberals that not only steal our money but also our property.   He is a Conservative that has long been supporting firearm owners. I am hoping for a federal election sooner rather than later.

 

[TCBF]

The Liberals have stolen our property.  They just haven't gotten around to coming and picking it up yet.

Tom

 

[KevinB]

Go out and buy "Unintended Consequences"

- we are frogs been slowly boiled...

 

[TCBF]

I read it ten years ago.  Good book.

Tom

 

[KevinB]

I loaned it out a few years ago to a buddy in Ottawa - he lent it to another buddy, etc...

I hear there is an upcoming sequel. 

 

[TCBF]

What a great day!  A family outing to the shooting club, where my son, wife, brother in law, and myself all fired my 8L FN C1A1 on the last legal day allowed to do so (notwithstanding the SAPs that go to 31 May 05).

I threw in the Mini-14 as well (because, who knows what those cumbubbles will ban next?) and a grand time was had by all.  Nice to kinow I can still consistantly group 3" to 6" at 100 yards, with a C1.

A superb family outing.  The Mini-14 is the first rifle my son ever fired.  The FN C1A1 was the second.

What a wonderful day for traditional Western family values! 

Tom

;D

 

 

[TCBF]

Chair's Summary of the 'International Meeting on the Regulation of
Civilian Ownership and Use of Small Arms' -
Rio de Janeiro, March 16-18 2005
Convened by the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue in collaboration with the
Government of Brazil, Viva Rio and Sou da Paz
Representatives of States, international organisations and civil society groups
participated in the International Meeting on the Regulation of Civilian Ownership
and Use of Small Arms from 16-18 March 2005 in Rio de Janeiro. The meeting
included participants from all regions of the world, making it one of the first
ever explicitly concerned with the establishment of global standards for
ownership and use of small arms as it relates to national arms control.
Participants observed that the majority of small arms are, in fact, in the hands
of civilians, hence the importance of regulation of the possession and use of
such arms. In addition, the meeting also observed that the majority of victims
and survivors of gun violence around the world are civilians, thus
emphasizing the direct impact of these weapons on civilians, as well as the
urgent need for states to address the issue of regulation and licensing of
weapons.
Experiences were exchanged from a number of contexts - 'peaceful' nations
as well as those recovering from years of war. It was consistently reinforced
that weapons proliferation and misuse knows no borders. Participants
further reiterated that many weapons are held and used illegally. In addition,
many legally-held weapons are used with illegal intent. It is therefore
necessary to recognise that all civilian-held firearms, whether legal or illegally
held, pose potential threats for misuse, and legislation must recognise and
address this reality. Where firearm legislation is in place, it is often
inadequately enforced. Moreover, states highlighted the importance of
promoting greater harmonisation of arms control laws both within each State
and region and globally, to limit the ability of lawbreakers to evade tough
standards.
There was also reflection on the progress that has been made in recent years
in improving national small arms control legislation, particularly at the
national and regional levels. The participants were heartened by emerging
trend towards increased national regulation, as suggested by major legislative
revisions in at least a dozen countries in the past decade, and by ongoing law
reform efforts in a number of other States. These national-level efforts have
occurred in tandem with impressive regional efforts, including the 2000 Legal
Framework for a C(the Nadi Framework), the 2001 Protocol on the Control of Firearms,
Ammunition and other related materials in the Southern African
Development Community (SADC) region, and the 2004 Nairobi Protocol for
the Prevention, Control and Reduction of Small Arms and Light Weapons in
the Great Lakes Region and the Horn of Africa.
Despite this progress, however, participants cited a need to better coordinate
actions at the local, national and regional levels, and to strive for the
establishment of minimum standards so that inadequate legislation in one
state or region does not undermine the efforts of others to address the issue.
The 2001 Programme of Action to Prevent, Combat and Eradicate the Illicit
Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in All Its Aspects is a positive first
step in terms of achieving progress at the international level. Article 3, in
particular, calls on States to criminalise illegal firearm possession, to require
all firearms be marked, and to establish accurate and timely systems to record
firearm stockpiles. Despite the omission of the need for regulation of civilian
possession in the 2001 UN Programme of Action, more than sixty nations
reported on their national arms control laws and approaches at the 2003
Biennial Meeting of States on the UN Programme of Action, indicative of the
will and commitment to address this issue. In preparation for the forthcoming
Second Biennial Meeting of States, States were encouraged to continue this
practice and include this focus in their national reports and statements.
Participants observed that the discussions on the development of global
principles for arms transfers including small arms and light weapons and the
possibility for greater control of these transfers would further support efforts
to end the misuse of weapons by civilians in many nations and regions. In
addition, a compelling case for careful regulation of civilian-held weapons
was put forward by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Human Rights
and Small Arms. Ms Frey noted that international human rights standards
place duties on States to take proactive steps to protect those within their
jurisdiction against threats to life and bodily harm, and it is increasingly
recognised that doing so requires states to put in place effective systems for
regulating the possession and use of guns by civilians.
Building on the principles noted in the Chair's summary from the January
2005 meeting in Montreux and having examined the above instruments, as
well as several national case studies, the experts proposed a number of
principles that could form the basis for minimum standards to guide national
small arms control policies and regulations:
"¢ Civilians should be restricted from acquiring or possessing small arms
designed for military use.ommon Approach to Weapons Control of the South Pacific
"¢ Ownership of small arms should be contingent on obtaining a firearms
license, which, in turn, could be based on the following minimum
criteria, inter alia - meeting a minimum age requirement; lacking a
relevant criminal history, including of intimate partner and family
violence; existence of a legitimate reason to acquire weapons;
observance of relevant gun laws as well as the safe and efficient
handling of small arms.
"¢ Small arms licenses should be time-limited and subject to periodic
renewal.
"¢
Measures should be in place to allow for the removal of small arms
from owners whose licenses have been revoked or persons unfit to
possess firearms.
"¢ Small arms ammunition sales should be restricted to those with a valid
firearms license, and only for ammunition suitable for the type of gun
specified on the license as well as limitation on the number of rounds
of ammunition allowed.
"¢ States should ensure that adequate records are kept of all civilian-held
small arms, including details of the authorised holder and unique
serial number of the weapon.
"¢ Greater co-ordination of civilian focussed small arms laws and
enforcement practices should be encouraged to the greatest extent
possible to ensure consistent good practices within regions as well as
national uniformity.
"¢ Where feasible, States, international organisations and civil society
should provide assistance and collaborate for the effective
implementation of standards such as these.
The meeting concluded with agreement that interested States could usefully
build on progress made in the UN small arms process as well as at regional
and national levels, by promoting good practices and lessons learned as well
as the identification of policy recommendations on the issue of effective gun
control legislation and approaches for discussion at the 2006 Review
Conference.

 

[Infanteer]

What a wonderful day for traditional Western family values!    

Me and domestic 9er took her son and her neice out bowling, does that count?

 

[TCBF]

Bowling?    Well, yeah, of course it counts.  Ten Pin or Five Pin?

Before I was 16, I spent a lot more time in a bowling alley with my parents than I ever did on a range.

Quality family time, right?

And hey, it's our culture.  Think Bin Laden bowls?  ;D

Tom

 

[muskrat89]

Interesting article in the Tucson newspaper today: http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/news/71920.php

Assault-weapons ban ended, crime didn't rise
THE NEW YORK TIMES

Despite dire predictions that the streets would be awash in military-style guns, the expiration of the decade-long assault-weapons ban last September has not set off a sustained surge in the weapons' sales, gun makers and sellers say.

It also has not caused any noticeable increase in gun crime in the past seven months, according to several metropolitan police departments.

The uneventful expiration of the assault weapons ban did not surprise gun owners, nor it did not surprise some gun-control advocates. Rather, it underlined what many of them had said all along: That the ban was so porous that assault weapons remained widely available throughout their prohibition.

"The whole time that the American public thought there was an assault-weapons ban, there never really was one," said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, a gun-control group.

What's more, law-enforcement officials say that military-style weapons, which were seldom used in gun crimes but enjoyed some vogue in the years before the ban took effect, seem to have lost appeal to criminals.

"Back in the early '90s, criminals wanted those Rambo-type weapons they could brandish," said Jim Pasco, executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police. "Today they are much happier with a 9-millimeter handgun they can stick in their belt."

When the ban took effect in 1994, it exempted more than 1.5 million assault weapons already in private hands.

Over the next 10 years, at least 1.17 million more assault weapons were produced - legitimately - by manufacturers that availed themselves of loopholes in the law, according to the Violence Policy Center.

Throughout the decade-long ban, for instance, the gun manufacturer DPMS/Panther Arms of Minnesota continued selling assault rifles to civilians by the tens of thousands. In compliance with the ban, the firearms manufacturer "sporterized" the military-style weapons, sawing off bayonet lugs, securing stocks so they were not collapsible and adding muzzle brakes. But the changes did not alter the guns' essence; they were still semiautomatic rifles with pistol grips.



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[Infanteer]

Throughout the decade-long ban, for instance, the gun manufacturer DPMS/Panther Arms of Minnesota continued selling assault rifles to civilians by the tens of thousands. In compliance with the ban, the firearms manufacturer "sporterized" the military-style weapons, sawing off bayonet lugs, securing stocks so they were not collapsible and adding muzzle brakes. But the changes did not alter the guns' essence; they were still semiautomatic rifles with pistol grips.

...which goes to show you that it is more fear than actual knowledge or logic driving much of the Gun Control crowd....

 

[CH1]

Evening All.

And what of the Afghanny School of gunsmithing, never mind improvised munitions.  I wonder if all that have served in the military will be the next target.  After all the years of intensive Trg, & ops, with out deprogramming, we could be classed as weapons dangerous to the public peace.  With the current definition of "weapon" being so vague, it could in a few years, become fact.  To most of us this may be a very abstract concept, but the minds behind these laws are not really playing with a full deck!  We are a tool used by a certain group to attain their lofty goals.

Gives new definition to 9920-21-107-0000 Grunt C1R1 Class C Expendable.

Cheers 

 

[TCBF]

Attempt to add photos unsuccessful.