The Great Gun Control Debate

[Kilo_302]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/georgia-showdown-guns-everywhere

Pylons. This is the stupid crap that happens with open carry laws. We're regressing as a society.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Further to that;

What professional stops being who and what they are when they are "off the clock" so to speak?

Doctors in the US driving by car accidents too and from work.

I personally find it sad that you need to walk around armed to make you feel safe.

We all like the idea of being able to carry firearms because most of us on here feel that we are competent when it comes to handling them. The problem is IMO is that the average person isn't competent and there is no safety course that teaches people to shoot under stress. So if John Q. Public is allowed to walk around with a semi automatic pistol and decides to use it to stop a violent crime does that mean if they shoot and wound/kill a bystander in the process they will be protected under the Good Samaritan act?

No intention on my part to be condescending I was just suggesting that I find it sad the U.S has deteriorated to the point that people would feel the need to be armed to carry out everyday life.

I like your points.
I think about this a lot when discussing CCW permits in Canada as well as Open Carry laws.

One one hand I'm certain if we had CCW permits we would run into problems of accidental shootings, standoffs and by-standers getting hit. People would be pulling their pistols out in movie theaters. NDs everywhere.  I feel the same about open carry.  You know if all of a sudden it was allowed there would be people who feel the need to push the envelope and walk around with 5 guns hanging off them which is great in the middle of the street but annoying when you're in a tiny store trying to pay for gas. Or sitting down with your family for a meal and you get a rifle butt in the face by accident. Children finding unattended guns...

On the other hand I used to be against CCW permits until my neighbor was randomly stabbed to death when he opened the door to some mental case who turned around and then tried to cave in the head of a 17 year old babysitter a few houses away.

The police can't protect you from a gunmans initial barrage. If you're lucky they can show up 5-10 minutes later.

There are some super psychopaths out there. Guys cutting heads off of people on the bus, people hacking up strangers with machetes, gunmen blowing away 6 year olds in schools.  The world is a shitty place full of bad people.  The pros outweigh the cons with arming ourselves in my opinion.

 

[Transporter]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/georgia-showdown-guns-everywhere

Pylons. This is the stupid crap that happens with open carry laws. We're regressing as a society.

Tip of the iceberg.

 

[KevinB]

How is that relevant?

Interestingly enough it probably is not.

I have a VA CHP - mainly as it serves as a second form of ID with my address on it when I buy guns, as I have a LEOSA provided 50 state carry permit with my LE cred's. 

Off-Duty I have no great powers of anything, and am generally held to a higher standard than a civilian with a CHP/CCW/CWP.  However the state mandated LE pistol qual is pretty bland - our department shoots to a higher standard, mainly as we all (and most importantly our chief feels) know the state qual is not sufficient.
  In my day job I deal with a lot of LE dept's and the qualification requirements are pretty low -- the best training LE gets over a CWP civilian is the use of force training.  But even with limited aspects on that the streets in the US do not run red with civilians shooting folks accidentally.

My LE job deals with a Federal Task Force -

The biggest aspect people need to understand is that guns are neutral - not evil or good, they are a tool -- used by people, people who need to be responsible for their actions -- cars and alcohol kill more folks than guns -- but oddly we do not see bottle of liquor being registered, or bans on cars that have bigger engines or large fuel tanks.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Interestingly enough it probably is not.

I have a VA CHP - mainly as it serves as a second form of ID with my address on it when I buy guns, as I have a LEOSA provided 50 state carry permit with my LE cred's. 

Off-Duty I have no great powers of anything, and am generally held to a higher standard than a civilian with a CHP/CCW/CWP.  However the state mandated LE pistol qual is pretty bland - our department shoots to a higher standard, mainly as we all (and most importantly our chief feels) know the state qual is not sufficient.
  In my day job I deal with a lot of LE dept's and the qualification requirements are pretty low -- the best training LE gets over a CWP civilian is the use of force training.  But even with limited aspects on that the streets in the US do not run red with civilians shooting folks accidentally.

My LE job deals with a Federal Task Force -

The biggest aspect people need to understand is that guns are neutral - not evil or good, they are a tool -- used by people, people who need to be responsible for their actions -- cars and alcohol kill more folks than guns -- but oddly we do not see bottle of liquor being registered, or bans on cars that have bigger engines or large fuel tanks.

Thx Kev. I should have known better than to speak for you 

 

[KevinB]

No worries brother.

 

[OldSolduer]

Thx Kev. I should have known better than to speak for you 

You responded far more diplomatically and tactful than I would have. 

 

[x_para76]

[quote author=ObedientiaZelum link=topic=28692/post-1319311#
On the other hand I used to be against CCW permits until my neighbor was randomly stabbed to death when he opened the door to some mental case who turned around and then tried to cave in the head of a 17 year old babysitter a few houses away.

IMO that situation is less about gun ownership and more about the health care system closing care facilities for people with mental health issues. Unless you neighbour had answered the door with his weapon in hand it's unlikely he would've been able to bring it to bare before being attacked. Unfortunately even if we were all armed it likely wouldn't be possible to stop every random act of violence.

 

[The_Falcon]

I have worked with several Americans (there are also many on YouTube) who carry even their own homes, precisely because of random events like the one OZ mentioned.

 

[x_para76]

I have worked with several Americans (there are also many on YouTube) who carry even their own homes, precisely because of random events like the one OZ mentioned.

As I stated  earlier unless the person above had answered the door with their weapon drawn it's unlikely that they would have been able to react quickly enough to draw their weapon as well as get rounds on target before they were attacked.  I know we all like to think that we would shoot like Jack Bauer but unfortunately the reality of things such as the reactionary gap prevents this from being the case.

 

[OldSolduer]

You won't stop random attacks by crazy folk.....but rational folk who know you may be packing some heat may be dissuaded from committing a home invasion or a robbery
Criminals like easy targets......and they will avoid situations where they cannot dominate.....

 

[x_para76]

You responded far more diplomatically and tactful than I would have. 

Just out of curiosity what are you implying here Jim? Are you suggesting that had you replied to my comment on behalf of Kevin B. you would have been all over me?

 

[KevinB]

As I stated  earlier unless the person above had answered the door with their weapon drawn it's unlikely that they would have been able to react quickly enough to draw their weapon as well as get rounds on target before they were attacked.  I know we all like to think that we would shoot like Jack Bauer but unfortunately the reality of things such as the reactionary gap prevents this from being the case.

Jack Bauer actually asks himself WWKBD...

I carry in my house - and I look out before I open my door. 
  That being said -- you're right in your earlier post even being really good with a gun and having it, will not stop all crime, or even ensure you are not hurt.

However I believe that by being armed, in the unlikely event of something bad going down, I will be able to minimise the damage to society, better than I could unarmed.

Putting my Cop hat on for a moment - CCW holders are generally fall more law abiding than the rest of 'law abiding' society.  Generally down here (like in Canada) folks who go thru the dickdance of getting paperwork for firearms, are not the folks you need to worry about.
 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Unless you neighbour had answered the door with his weapon in hand it's unlikely he would've been able to bring it to bare before being attacked. Unfortunately even if we were all armed it likely wouldn't be possible to stop every random act of violence.

I totally agree. I'd bet money that he wouldn't have been able to bring a pistol to bare before being attacked. I do think that had he been carrying a pistol he may have had a better chance fending off the mental case.  He may still be alive, his wife may not be disabled from the viscous attack (I heard she's blind in one eye) and a 17 year old girl may not have been attacked and scared for life.

The scenario deals with a lot of what if's (including having your own pistol used against you).

At the end of the day if you (or your 18 year old daughter who is home alone) were going to be randomly attacked would you prefer your chances with a pistol at arms reach or without one?

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

Putting my Cop hat on for a moment - CCW holders are generally fall more law abiding than the rest of 'law abiding' society.  Generally down here (like in Canada) folks who go thru the dickdance of getting paperwork for firearms, are not the folks you need to worry about.

I find it truly fascinating how LE in Canada generally say the exact opposite. My reserve unit houses about ten or so LEO's and I've had this exact conversation with several already. Most of them view civilian gun owners, especially ones with pistols and black rifles, with suspicion and some even adamantly protest the fact that pistols and black rifles are available to us. Nevermind CCW..

 

[KevinB]

I find it truly fascinating how LE in Canada generally say the exact opposite. My reserve unit houses about ten or so LEO's and I've had this exact conversation with several already. Most of them view civilian gun owners, especially ones with pistols and black rifles, with suspicion and some even adamantly protest the fact that pistols and black rifles are available to us. Nevermind CCW..

Oh Canada...

sigh

no idea how to answer that.  Other than I'm in NY this week, about 15min from the Canadian border, and I look at the I81 North sign that says Canada, and I looked in the back of my truck and the gun on my hip, and I give my head a little shake, and turn left into Ft. Drum...

 

[Zoomie]

I'm a pilot.  When I go home, I make sure I wear my big pilot watch everywhere, talk in phonetics and carry my survival knife everywhere I go. 

 

[KevinB]

I'm a pilot.  When I go home, I make sure I wear my big pilot watch everywhere, talk in phonetics and carry my survival knife everywhere I go. 

If it makes you happy bro  ;D

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

Oh Canada...

sigh

no idea how to answer that.  Other than I'm in NY this week, about 15min from the Canadian border, and I look at the I81 North sign that says Canada, and I looked in the back of my truck and the gun on my hip, and I give my head a little shake, and turn left into Ft. Drum...

Symptomatic of decades of brainwashing by liberals like Allan Rock et al.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

I find it truly fascinating how LE in Canada generally say the exact opposite. My reserve unit houses about ten or so LEO's and I've had this exact conversation with several already. Most of them view civilian gun owners, especially ones with pistols and black rifles, with suspicion and some even adamantly protest the fact that pistols and black rifles are available to us. Nevermind CCW..

Interesting.

I take it you're on the Red Coast then?