The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Fishbone Jones]

My reloading equipment is off the table. I reload for guns other than semi's & rifles fire pistol cartridges. Other than an ancillary relationship. My reloading stuff won't kill anyone. Besides, it can't figure out how the door works.

On the other hand, I caught my guns having a party the other night and stopped them before they went downtown and caused trouble. They thought about pushing it, but I reminded them, I was the one that feeds them. They grudgingly returned to their rooms. You think they didn't have a brain sometimes. :facepalm:

 

[Haggis]

I'd imagine Canadians would demand the same.

That would be asking the government for more than they can give right now.

Liberal government is going to have to come up with a lot of money, kick the can down the road, or confiscate millions of dollars or private property.

As I pointed out before, there is no money earmarked in the FY 2019/2020 budget for compensation following a ban.

Tough choices for Mr T.

  He's used to tough choices.  He's just not used to accepting the consequences of those choices.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

  He's used to tough choices.  He's just not used to accepting the consequences of those choices.

He doesn't make tough choices, he throws darts. He has no idea what he's doing as he bumbles from one fiasco to another. All he hopes for, is that if it goes in the shitter, he has someone to blame.

 

[Kat Stevens]

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/firearm-buyback-scheme-could-cost-500m-twice-governments-estimate-lobbyist-group-says?variant=tb_v_3&fbclid=IwAR2kDAk6E4FnCFEuzXC5AzZ6VjHv-SXBlvrnk1STAuq1hOFmas2PDCuzS8Y


The $200 million dollars  buy back the NZ government initially claimed for the 15'000 semi-automatic rifles their estimating could be as much $500 million.

$500 million for 15'000 if I'm reading that right. In Canada I believe there's an estimated 50'000 AR15s alone and a hell of alot more guns that would fall under a military style /detachable magazine clause. Litterally millions I'd guess.

NZ gun owners also want more compensation for magazines (I have 9 P226 mags at $65 a pop), expensive reloading equipment and especially ammunition.

I'd imagin Canadians would demand the same.

Liberal government is going to have to come up with a lot of money, kick the can down the road, or confiscate millions of dollars or private property. Tough choices for Mr T.

We can demand all we want, everyone here knows what we'll get is the square root of fuck all.

 

[Cloud Cover]

TBH the feds are setting themselves up for an epic constitutional battle with provinces who, should they choose, have a lot of firepower. If Kenney wins the election in AB, the block from AB to Ont. will be looking to backhand the feds on pretty much every issue they can. The mission for firearms owners is to push for enshrined property rights.

 

[SentryMAn]

Why gun control works....for reasonable society
If no one has guns and a fight breaks out, the hospital deals with a couple broken bones, a concussion, some lacerations, etc.
If a fight breaks out and everyone has guns, the coroner is called, the police need to make notifications, the wounded are arrested, families destroyed, the good guys get shot by the police, etc.

I'm not against gun ownership, I could care less about you spending 1000's on arming yourself for when the government gets overthrown by......the military? Militia? USA?  still trying to figure out what people are arming themselves against.

Responsible ownership of weapons and guns SHOULD be what every person in Canada is looking for.  I really don't want to go down the road of the USA where I get stopped for speeding and need to be removed from my car by a trigger happy gun pointing officer of the law for possibly having a firearm in my car. 

Do you really want some Joe kid with a fake ID walk into a gun store and pay a few quid for a gun then walk out after 20mins of pleading with the store owner?

does anyone really believe the ideology that to solve the gun problem we need more guns?  Why is it that guns make people feel safe?  Why are people scared of some mythical uprising of the totalitarian state?  Are we all scared of Putin?

Flame away.....

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Sentry Man]

I'm not against gun ownership, I could care less about you spending 1000's on arming yourself for when the government gets overthrown by......the military? Militia? USA?  still trying to figure out what people are arming themselves against.

[/quote]

Thats as pig headed as me saying I'm not against you buying alcohol so you can.... get women drunk to date rape them? 

 

[Haggis]

Responsible ownership of weapons and guns SHOULD be what every person in Canada is looking for.

Canada already does have responsible ownership of firearms and that privilege is exercised by two million Canadians every day.  If you read through the 300+ posts that precede yours you'll see that the focus of current government initiatives on gun "control" are aimed at those 2M Canadians that are already responsible.  There is nothing - absolutely NOTHING in Bill C-71 to address current and future criminal acquisition and use of illegal firearms.

Do you really want some Joe kid with a fake ID walk into a gun store and pay a few quid for a gun then walk out after 20mins of pleading with the store owner?

The instances of this happening in Canada (and I suspect you're unaware of how the current laws work to have made such a statement) is so rare as to be statistically insignificant.  Again, current gun "control" initiatives will do nothing to stop Joe Kid from buying an illegal gun smuggled in from the US out of the trunk of a car.  And it'll cost a heck of a lot more than a few quid.

 

[SentryMAn]

My apologies, I need to remember the audience of this board isn't "general public" and more geared towards trained military members/former members.

I'm used to the Canadians wanting the 2nd amendment in Canada and allowing open carry and everything that comes with it

 

[Lumber]

My apologies, I need to remember the audience of this board isn't "general public" and more geared towards trained military members/former members.

I'm used to the Canadians wanting the 2nd amendment in Canada and allowing open carry and everything that comes with it

There are some on here who want exactly that, and would go a step further and believe guns should be treated like, oh let's say... breakfast cereal. Production standards for sure, but no real laws when it comes to buying, selling, owning, using, sharing, etc.

So, while we're definitely more a "right leaning" site when it comes to gun laws, I would say the majority of us on here thing that gun laws and gun control are good thing, but that those laws need to be smart and based on real data. Most probably don't want it to be like the US where you can go into a store without any kind of licence or training and buy a gun. In fact, most states have passed laws that expressly state that it is illegal to MAKE gun laws requiring licences and registration, meaning to create licencing nad registration laws, they'd first have to repeal the anti-licence and registration laws.

I, for one, used to be much more pro gun-control, but the people here make sound arguments, and it's hard to be pro-gun control (the really strict kind of gun control) when you stop and listen and hear the facts.

When it comes to the US, I'm mixed. I don't personally believe that we need guns for "home protection" or "self defence" here in Canada, but in the US, there are SO MANY FREAKING GUNS that if I lived there, I would probably want one too. Other than making guns illegal and forcibly taking guns away from all gun owners to reduce the number of guns in the US, no gun control law, IMO, will take away the threat posed by the fact that there are just an unbelievable number of guns, both legal and illegal, floating around the states.

 

[Remius]

I think that it might just be as simple as not criminalising legal law abiding gun owners when the government moves the goal posts.

Grandfathering people who followed the rules might be nice too.

People like to use the car license analogy.  Well when they moved to graduated licensing in Ontario, current licensees didn't have to go back and redo the new tests and conditions.

I think a vast majority of the pro gun lobby in Canada aren't against certain legislation surrounding fire arms just legislation that they feel unfairly treats them when all they do is follow the rules. 

 

[Haggis]

I think that it might just be as simple as not criminalising legal law abiding gun owners when the government moves the goal posts.

The problem is that the government rarely moves the goalposts in favour of law abiding gun owners.  By default, they become as criminalized as the gang bangers.  What would be nice is if simple paper gun crimes were decriminalized and dealt with administratively instead.

Grandfathering people who followed the rules might be nice too.

  This statement implies that something needs to be grandfathered because it was banned. 

I think a vast majority of the pro gun lobby in Canada aren't against certain legislation surrounding fire arms just legislation that they feel unfairly treats them when all they do is follow the rules.

But it's because they follow the rules that law abiding gun owners are an easy target for new laws.  For the most part, they will comply, likely grudgingly, because they are law abiding.  This gives the government the social justice "win" needed.  The Liberals know that criminal possession and use of firearms is already outlawed.  They can "re-outlaw" it.  So, they go after something they can outlaw (like handguns) so they can be seen to have done "something".

 

[Kat Stevens]

If I had guns that were required to be turned in, they’d be going through a 80 ton press on the way to their internment.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There are some on here who want exactly that, and would go a step further and believe guns should be treated like, oh let's say... breakfast cereal. Production standards for sure, but no real laws when it comes to buying, selling, owning, using, sharing, etc.

Not trying to force an issue, but I don't think I've seen anyone here voice that extreme an opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you point me to a post where the user that said they preferred no gun laws whatsoever and give things over to the 1800's Old West? That would be akin to saying they want criminals to have the same status as law abiding owners.  :dunno:

On the face, that seems a rather, over the top, hyperbolic statement.

Why gun control works....for reasonable society
If no one has guns and a fight breaks out, the hospital deals with a couple broken bones, a concussion, some lacerations, etc.
If a fight breaks out and everyone has guns, the coroner is called, the police need to make notifications, the wounded are arrested, families destroyed, the good guys get shot by the police, etc.

Hmmmm, where to start. Gun control, as envisioned by our current government, doesn't work. Full stop. They go for votes, not safety. Law abiding citizens are penalized because they are easy prey for the propaganda and derision spread by Blair, Trudeau, Goodale and Toronto's John Tory, to name a few. Their disinformation campaign would make Joseph Goebbels blush with envy. It would take balls and guts for a government to tackle the criminal side of the issue, but our government is impotent and disinterested when it comes to tackling the criminals.

If they are intent on causing bodily harm, as with a gun, they will employ whatever they have at hand or brought with them. Bats, golf clubs, axes, knives, swords, trucks or explosives........Oh, plus, zipguns and homemade firearms. It will be much more bloody and horrific, than if a gun had been used. The end results are the same, but bloodier and more violent.  The coroner will still be called, the police will still need to make notifications, the wounded will still be arrested(?not sure where you were going with that?), families will still be destroyed, the good guys will still get shot by police, etc, as per your explanation.


I'm not against gun ownership, I could care less about you spending 1000's on arming yourself for when the government gets overthrown by......the military? Militia? USA?  still trying to figure out what people are arming themselves against.

If you could care less, why come here and ask? Are you trying to inflame things? A person can own a firearm for any number of reasons, not just the single one you've stated or decided to hang your hat on. Is there a reason someone should not be prepared for any contingency? It may only be 1% of the overall reasons for owning, but it doesn't hurt anyone to look toward all options. Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Better to hope, but be prepared, in case. What is wrong with that? It's not prepping, or militia or anything else. It's a thought, a "What if?", a combat estimate, if you will. Isn't that what the military pounds into every leader's head? Never say never.

Responsible ownership of weapons and guns SHOULD be what every person in Canada is looking for.  I really don't want to go down the road of the USA where I get stopped for speeding and need to be removed from my car by a trigger happy gun pointing officer of the law for possibly having a firearm in my car.

It is what every gun owner wishes for, but that is not what some Canadians and our government wish for. If you have not had concealed carry training, don't know the laws or mechanics of it, don't know how, or refuse to properly respond to an officer's instructions, you'll have the hard time your expecting. Learn the rules, take the training, etc, then you can talk from a position of knowledge, instead of ignorance. If your speeding, your already breaking the law, aren't you. Not what we want in law abiding firearms owners. Is it?



Do you really want some Joe kid with a fake ID walk into a gun store and pay a few quid for a gun then walk out after 20mins of pleading with the store owner?

Where did this happen in Canada? Post me a link please. Otherwise that's a red herring. A hypothetical that doesn't rate any sort of serious answer

does anyone really believe the ideology that to solve the gun problem we need more guns?  Why is it that guns make people feel safe?  Why are people scared of some mythical uprising of the totalitarian state?  Are we all scared of Putin?

Many people are hunters. Many people are collectors. Many have firearms for self defence. Many are target shooters. You, on the other hand, have bypassed the brush and gone straight to throwing the paint bucket at the wall. It appears you're being purposely inflammatory. Why should it concern you what I want to buy or possess. What business is it, of yours, what I own or possess? Has anyone asked you for an inventory of your holdings so they can tell you what you can have or have not? Can I look over your list and tell you what you can keep? Of course not.

Reminds me of an adage though.
If a Conservative doesn't like guns, they don't buy one.
If a liberal doesn't like guns, nobody can buy one.


Flame away.....

Tanks!

If your queries are genuine. Start reading this thread at the beginning. Then go read The Great Gun Control Debate ver 1.0. A lot of your questions, if not all, have been asked and answered before. Go spend some quality reading time, your perspective might change.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If I had guns that were required to be turned in, they’d be going through a 80 ton press on the way to their internment.

I have a standing offer at a die shop, 24/7.

 

[suffolkowner]

Before the Christchurch massacre I felt that the Liberals would move handguns to prohibited and semiautomatics to restricted. I am now fearing that there is pressure and opportunity to do more and follow the NZ example. It would be a great wedge issue for the election. My rifles are split almost 50/50 between semis and levers and I am extremely disinclined to lose them. For me they are a tool that I use in my daily/yearly life. For hunting and the removal of predators that threaten my family and livestock. I feel that firearm ownership is more than just a privilege and more like a restricted right. I don't believe my grandfather had any real restrictions on his firearm use (and he used to shoot an excessively large amounts of wildlife a year it was part of his livelihood). In what other case are people advocating that people use an inferior tool and disregard progress. This is probably completely beyond the comprehension of urban voters, unfortunately.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Here's an example of more stupidity.

Last Saturday Dean Carr, owner of Select Shooting Supplies in Cambridge Ontario , was knifed in his store. Looks like some nutbar who maybe wanted to commit suicide by cop. Haven't read why yet.

City councillor Mike Mann's response speaks volumes.

In the wake of Saturday’s incident at a Preston gun shop, city Coun. Mike Mann is asking city staff to develop a list of shops selling guns and ammunition in Cambridge.

“My concern is we don’t know about these gun shops that are located in our communities,” he told council Tuesday.

Mann learned that while the businesses are registered federally and provincially, the city, while issuing a business licence, is unaware of what products or goods are being sold.

“Having a gun store in a downtown core, opposite a park, down the street from a school and close to a senior centre is not appropriate,” Mann said, in reference to Select Shooting Supplies.

https://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-story/9245317-cambridge-councillor-wants-better-information-on-city-gun-shops/?fbclid=iwar1ljzhi-p02eibnuw2bj5gi-nqacwf9_wmqs2ohm8xny_minv-68gx6upg

The store owner was *stabbed*.

Why is having a gun store near a park, school and senior center inappropriate?  Because gun owners are waiting months to get their license then buying guns when they finally do get approved and turning around and shooting up senior centers?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Interesting. SAIL is just up the road from there. The second floor is where all the iron is. There is a bank and a liquor store nearby, there's another deadly mixture  :

 

[SentryMAn]

Quote from: SentryMAn on Yesterday at 09:32:47

Why gun control works....for reasonable society
If no one has guns and a fight breaks out, the hospital deals with a couple broken bones, a concussion, some lacerations, etc.
If a fight breaks out and everyone has guns, the coroner is called, the police need to make notifications, the wounded are arrested, families destroyed, the good guys get shot by the police, etc.

Hmmmm, where to start. Gun control, as envisioned by our current government, doesn't work. Full stop. They go for votes, not safety. Law abiding citizens are penalized because they are easy prey for the propaganda and derision spread by Blair, Trudeau, Goodale and Toronto's John Tory, to name a few. Their disinformation campaign would make Joseph Goebbels blush with envy. It would take balls and guts for a government to tackle the criminal side of the issue, but our government is impotent and disinterested when it comes to tackling the criminals.

If they are intent on causing bodily harm, as with a gun, they will employ whatever they have at hand or brought with them. Bats, golf clubs, axes, knives, swords, trucks or explosives........Oh, plus, zipguns and homemade firearms. It will be much more bloody and horrific, than if a gun had been used. The end results are the same, but bloodier and more violent.  The coroner will still be called, the police will still need to make notifications, the wounded will still be arrested(?not sure where you were going with that?), families will still be destroyed, the good guys will still get shot by police, etc, as per your explanation.


I'm not against gun ownership, I could care less about you spending 1000's on arming yourself for when the government gets overthrown by......the military? Militia? USA?  still trying to figure out what people are arming themselves against.

If you could care less, why come here and ask? Are you trying to inflame things? A person can own a firearm for any number of reasons, not just the single one you've stated or decided to hang your hat on. Is there a reason someone should not be prepared for any contingency? It may only be 1% of the overall reasons for owning, but it doesn't hurt anyone to look toward all options. Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Better to hope, but be prepared, in case. What is wrong with that? It's not prepping, or militia or anything else. It's a thought, a "What if?", a combat estimate, if you will. Isn't that what the military pounds into every leader's head? Never say never.

I have friends that prepare for the Zombie Apocalypse too, if they brought this into a combat estimate I'd politely ask them to proceed directly to mental health

It is what every gun owner wishes for, but that is not what some Canadians and our government wish for. If you have not had concealed carry training, don't know the laws or mechanics of it, don't know how, or refuse to properly respond to an officer's instructions, you'll have the hard time your expecting. Learn the rules, take the training, etc, then you can talk from a position of knowledge, instead of ignorance. If your speeding, your already breaking the law, aren't you. Not what we want in law abiding firearms owners. Is it?

Tell that to the 100's of Americans shot dead each year by cops at routine traffic stops, for listening to and abiding by commands.  Everyone is packing in the USA(ok ya got me, it's like 70% of the population own guns....)

Where did this happen in Canada? Post me a link please. Otherwise that's a red herring. A hypothetical that doesn't rate any sort of serious answer
Follow=-on to the moving towards a USA style gun control system in Canada, where so long as you can pay, you can play....everything else it secondary

does anyone really believe the ideology that to solve the gun problem we need more guns?  Why is it that guns make people feel safe?  Why are people scared of some mythical uprising of the totalitarian state?  Are we all scared of Putin?

Many people are hunters. Many people are collectors. Many have firearms for self defence. Many are target shooters. You, on the other hand, have bypassed the brush and gone straight to throwing the paint bucket at the wall. It appears you're being purposely inflammatory. Why should it concern you what I want to buy or possess. What business is it, of yours, what I own or possess? Has anyone asked you for an inventory of your holdings so they can tell you what you can have or have not? Can I look over your list and tell you what you can keep? Of course not.
What are you hunting with an assault riffle or is this for protection(from what exactly in Canada)?  Collectors can collect.  I picked a segment of the Gun touting population and targeted them. 
I prefer to say I bypassed the Brush and grabbed the paint gun as it does a better job of covering...


Reminds me of an adage though.
If a Conservative doesn't like guns, they don't buy one.
If a liberal doesn't like guns, nobody can buy one.

Why segregate the population on gun control?  Maybe there are Liberals on your side and maybe there are Cons not.....



Flame away.....

Tanks!

You said a lot of words.....I decided to only read half of them due to time constraints.

I also like teal

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=SentryMAn]

Tell that to the 100's of Americans shot dead each year by cops at routine traffic stops, for listening to and abiding by commands.  Everyone is packing in the USA(ok ya got me, it's like 70% of the population own guns....)


Follow=-on to the moving towards a USA style gun control system in Canada, where so long as you can pay, you can play....everything else it secondary
[/quote]

SentryMAn it seems like there is a specific argument you're looking to have here. I'll be honest I don't think you're going to find what you're looking for.  If you really want gun owners to flame you and beat up on you and your assault rifles for hunting style arguments there's probably a number of forums out there (both pro and anti gun) that you'd probably find more fulfilling.    :2c:






This article is about New Zealand gun confiscation but I'm placing it here of the obvious similarities of what could go wrong.

NZ Confiscations Begin: Police Going to Gun Owners’ Homes, Jobs…One Gun Owner Dead
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2019/03/luis-valdes/nz-confiscations-begin-police-going-to-gun-owners-homes-jobs-one-gun-owner-dead/



16 year old kid posted a photo of him holding an airsoft rifle and helmet on Facebook, looks like him and his father were airsoft players. People reported the photo to the police who showed up at the homes of his father, mother and grandparents to search for weapons.

Father is ex Russian military and for whatever reason assumed/was afraid of going back to prison and the 3 hour standoff ended in his apparent suicide.

Upon a search of the residence, police found an 8mm blank pistol, an airsoft rifle, and a SKS carbine. The SKS is now illegal under the country’s new ban.