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The FN C1 - Service Rifle of the Past (and C7A1 vs FN C1A1)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Luchi
  • Start date Start date
The what?

I think you mean the FNC1/C2 or FNC1A1
as the old Fabrique National family of weapons were called.

Seriously doubt we‘re going to bring back a older weapon heavier system that uses a different calibre than all our allies use.

They were good weapons (for their time), heavy to lug around, but robust.

In retospect we probably should not have got rid of the SMG though. It still would have been useful for vehicle crews, wpns dets etc IMHO.
 
As I understand it, the RCMP and JTF2 still have mp5‘s for counter terrorism purposes in civillian settings. Doubt they‘d be getting rid of them any time soon either.
 
The MP5 is an excellent wpn, especially in the CQB role. However for various reason you‘re never going to see them in sufficient numbers to equip line units. especially in the CF with our political masters.

The old Sterling SMG though was rugged enough for green ops for the pers I suggestd and we had sufficient stocks of them at the time. We kept the pistols and 9mm ammo, so logistically it wouln‘t have been too much of a headache to retain them when we converted over to the C7/C8/C9.
 
They may have been heavy & a bitch to deal with sometimes but go hide behind a tree or car & i garrinty(spelling) you i will get you.

7.62 vs 5.65 was a hot topic before i got out.
Most older guys wanted to keep the c series because of the power of 7.62. Others wanted more rounds down range & interchangeable ammo with allies who used 5.65.

I really do not know if we made the right choice.
Each weapon has it,s pros & cons.I alway liked the feel of a C1 & C3. Nice balance & easy to get back on target with.The C3 was a bit of a pig @
full auto but like anything else you learned
the " son of a bitch" rule.

I never got to fire the new weapons,so i really have no opinion about good/bad.

Played with M16 & thought it was a pcs of crap.
Kept jamming & a real pain in the a$$ to stay on
target with.

:cdn: :sniper:
 
Windwolf
Fortunately I stayed in long enough to use both. Like you I was a little reluctant to switch too. I‘d used M-16s on exchanges with the Yanks and wasn‘t impressed either with the mattel toy.

The improvements in both wpn and ammo though make it a different wpn altogether from the 1960s vintage M-16. There were other 5.65 wpns that may have been a beeter choice, but I soon became a convert.

Besides we had the C6 in 7.62 for those morons who tried to hide behind trees.
 
> Besides we had the C6 in 7.62 for those morons who tried to hide behind trees. >

M203 Baby! ;-)
 
I used the FN C1 and for its time, it was a nice piece of work. I would give my eye teeth (and a chunk of change) to buy one now (even converted to a semi-auto). Due to its weight, it was not difficult to get near perfect scores on the range. NOW? It USED to be easy to get marksman on the range with the C7 iron sights, but the scope on the C7A1? Well, I‘m not sure exactly what advantages it has. Certainly the majority of scores in the Brigade I‘m in have gone down. About 40% of shooters pass ELOC in the first try now. I‘d LOVE to practice with an FN.
 
which soldiers throughtout your career have tried the fnc1? and what did you like or dislike about it? please reply.
thanks
Newfoundlander :fifty:
 
I recall carrying the C1 and C2 for miles without the use of the sling. If nothing else my upper body strength was better for it! The C1/2 were solid pieces of furniture that punished you terribly for using it incorrectly. I never got ‘FN cheek‘ or a black eye, but often felt as if my right shoulder had been prepared with a meat tenderizer. The good point is that it could be deadly accurate, and although logic dictates that a C7 round can do as much (or more) damage, it did inspire confidence.
The big fault is that we were stuck with a C2 as a section weapon with a 30 rd mag, 150 rds per gunner. The C9 is clearly superior in terms of fire sustainability, and if you can believe it, I actually got a woody firing it on conversion training.
 
I first fired the C1 when I was 13, in Army Cadets. Personally I don‘t see what all the complaining was about with the recoil. I‘d heard all the horror stories and was prepared for the worst but was actually disapointed... And yes, I did fire quite a lot of rounds in my time. I‘ve never fired with the inserts, it was always full bore. I went to Cadets in Cornwallis...
 
I carried both the C1 and C2 for several years.The FN series was well past it‘s prime at the time of it‘s replacement,with a shortage of parts and worn out weapons.
 
Old topic but I'm new here, my 2 cents. I've never been in the army I'm a collector of military firearms and equipment the closest I can get to a C7 is an Ar-15 of which I've owned many and I like to shoot BUT if my life depended on it I would choose a C1 .I've owned 4 of these and currently I have a C1A1 and a C2A1 "CA" (C1 "D"is the light full auto Naval C1) both in minty condition I also have a Lietz sniperscope which I hope to mount on the C2 this year if I get my SAP for Winona (we rent it for our own club no DCRA/ORA).I have used my C1 out to 600yards at Winona with the sniperscope and I am amazed at how accurate it is for an untampered with semi-auto I can keep in the bull all day long and it has plenty of energy at the longer ranges which can't be said with the .223 plus7.62 bucks the wind much better the the 62gn .223 .the C1 is made the old way ,solid ,heavy strong some may argue these are weaknesses but I would want a rifle that would instill  confidence which I just don't get from an AR they feel too light too much like a toy fun to shoot but don't drop it it may break .Again like I said I'm not or have ever being in the Army these are just my feelings after shooting both types for many years
 
Cpl.Canuck said:
I used the FN C1 and for its time, it was a nice piece of work.   I would give my eye teeth (and a chunk of change) to buy one now (even converted to a semi-auto).  

To stop any misconceptions before they start the C1 was always semi-auto with the exception of the C1D for naval boarding party purposes (as Mark says in the above post). This was fitted with a C2 change lever, and C2 trigger plunger (thats all you needed), and the rifle was identified with a large A on the side of the butt near the rear sight. The A was painted either red or white. I had seen both. Near the end of service many C1D's were placed into regular service at Army units through Canada. The Regina Rifles had a few of them.

Commercial sale of the C1A1 and L1A1 rifles back in the early to late 1980s was a common thing. I had paid $750 for my 8L CAL C1A1(former OPP rifle exported to the UK and resold back into Canada) in 1987, and $450 for my Australian L1A1 in 1977 (both since sold to friends before I left Canada). Both rifles had intact safety sears, and unaltered breech block carriers.

If you are looking to buy either types today, you still can as long as you had one previous to the grandfather clause back in the mid 1990s. I had recently (this month at MARSTAR) seen an 8L CAL C1A1 for $1,200 advertised in Canada, adn $750 for an L1A1.

As for the C1/L1 weapons system, for its day it was fine, but it was severly critisised in the Falklands (I had the chance to read in detail the AAR on its performance and critique from the British Army back in 1983) War by the English.

As for the LAR, the C2A1, well that was a beast which was mag fed, fired from a closed bolt, and had no barrel change capabilities, which all are not good characteristics for an LAR/LMG. The British stayed away from the idea staying with the L4 BREN (yet later adpoted the L86A2 which is the same method as the C2, but the Poms have since seen the light, using the Minimi in Iraq).

Australia was the only other country to use the C2 type of weapon were it was known as the L2A1 or 'AR' for Automatic Rifle. This was primarily used by unitsother than infantry, as the US M60 GPMG and L4 A4 BRENS were also used.

Australia purchased from Canada C2 bipod assemblies, early type rear C2 1000 metre sights, and carrying handles in qty for their ARs. None of these were made by SAF-L, but all other components were. Also the Aussie version did not have a removable ejector block as did the C2A1 and 8L C1A1.

Production of the Aussie rifles began in 1959 and went well into the late 1980s, where Canada had produced the C1 from late 1956 to only 1968. BTW Canada was the first country to adopt and mass produce the FN rifle.

Such limitations noted in the British report were its weight, lack of amount of rds that could be carried, magazine size, lack of qty of mags that could be carried, and effectiveness in CQB situations.

The good advantage was its range, punch and it's robustness.

I carried the C1A1 from Jan 1976 until it was replaced by the C7 at our Unit in Oct 1990.

EDIT: Oddly enough, some private security firms are using 'upgunned' 7.62mm FN FAL rifles (upgunned meaning modernized, altered, customised, shortend bbls, picatinny rails etc) in Iraq.

Throughout the third world now, along with 'Mr Kalashnikov', one can find heaps of variants of the FAL rifle in the hands of many so called 'soldiers'.


Cheers,

Wes
 
Worn Out Grunt said:
The C9 is clearly superior in terms of fire sustainability, and if you can believe it, I actually got a woody firing it on conversion training.

"Clear weapons.... stand up..."
"I can't sir!"
 
Oddly enough, some private security firms are using 'upgunned' 7.62mm FN FAL rifles (upgunned meaning modernized, altered, customised, shortend bbls, picatinny rails etc) in Iraq.

sa58osw.gif
 
Hi there russm,

Very interesting postings, but finding it hard to believe "bolts" were kept in a box and issued randomly.
Quite scary
 
7ARMD said:
Hi there russm,

Very interesting postings, but finding it hard to believe "bolts" were kept in a box and issued randomly.
Quite scary

FACT: The breech blocks for the C1's and C2s were kept separate (policy at the time), and were issued at random, so you never got the same breech block twice. Normally there were no serial numbers on the breech blocks, but the odd time one would have one acid etched by hand, and they would never match. The same method for the C7A1 is used or was when I left in 1994. Unserialised bolts and bolt carriers, issued at random. Thats just how it was/is.

In the ADF all bolt carriers match for the F88 and M16 FOWs. Its done for accountability. Same goes for the bolts for the F89 Minimi too. All serialised. The Cdn C9 does not have a serialised bolt either (again when I left in 1994).

Another funky CF fact.

Cheers,

Wes
 
Wesley H. Allen said:
FACT: The breech blocks for the C1's and C2s were kept separate (policy at the time), and were issued at random, so you never got the same breech block twice. Normally there were no serial numbers on the breech blocks, but the odd time one would have one acid etched by hand, and they would never match. The same method for the C7A1 is used or was when I left in 1994. Unserialised bolts and bolt carriers, issued at random. Thats just how it was/is.

In the ADF all bolt carriers match for the F88 and M16 FOWs. Its done for accountability. Same goes for the bolts for the F89 Minimi too. All serialised. The Cdn C9 does not have a serialised bolt either (again when I left in 1994).

Another funky CF fact.

Cheers,

Wes
As an ex Armourer in British Army, this fact is still quite scary to me.
Apparently no-one has heard of Cartridge Head Space (CHS), or maybe CHS was just another case of the old
adage "BS baffles brains."


H
 
7ARMD said:
As an ex Armourer in British Army, this fact is still quite scary to me.
Apparently no-one has heard of Cartridge Head Space (CHS), or maybe CHS was just another case of the old
adage "BS baffles brains."
H

Indeed it is a case of "BS baffles brains".   The odds of getting the same C1 breechblock was purely a matter of probability theory.    In fact in my experience neither headspace   nor any other breechblock related stoppages due to the practice were realized on C1/C2.

Now headspace problems on the old re-calibred Browning GPMG, quite another story :o
 
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