The Evacuation of Canadians from Lebanon Thread

[marlene]

85 million for the evacuation, and I wonder how many initially claimed refugee status to enter Canada only to return and live in the country that was so dangerous they had to flee from it. The system doesn't work but unfortunately we live in a society where those that scream and whine the loudest win.  And the ones that scream and complain (as in those that complained regarding the so called gross discomfort they were forced to endure on evacuation) ruin it for those who are a) genuine refugees, b) are living in Canada and proud to be Canadian).  It's unfortunate.  It only takes a few to ruin it for many.

marlene

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

There should be one caveat issued by the Canadian Govt. that, just like going back onto thin ice after being pulled off, now that the area has been declared unstable Canadian citizens returning do so at their own risk.

 

[mcchartman]

There should be one caveat issued by the Canadian Govt. that, just like going back onto thin ice after being pulled off, now that the area has been declared unstable Canadian citizens returning do so at their own risk.

I was more thinking of some sort of special tax for Canadians living in risky countries (unless they are there as Gov't workers) to allow them to benefit from the advantages of the Canadian citizenship. It would work much like an insurance if you will... isn't that what a lot of them use their citizenship for in the first place? Thus, should a conflict or other tragedy erupt, their monetary contribution would cover for the emergency dispatches of ships/planes. THEN, and only THEN would they be morally entitled to complain if there were rats on board.

And should a conflict NOT erupt, it can always go towards filling the potholes in our streets...

Jokes aside though, this situation has sparked a lot of controversy over the double citizenship question and the 'Canadians-of-conveniance' notion. I still don't consider that abolishing dual-citizenship would solve the problem (even though I have never supported the concept myself), and as of yet, that's the only solution I could come up with.

 

[HDE]

It would be pretty hard to make the case that they don't know they're entering into a danger zone,  with all the risks involved.  I believe there's gotta be a point when the onus shifts to those knowingly putting themselves at risk to deal with the consequences.

Rescuing them once is reasonable; making a habit of it is an insult.

 

[The Bread Guy]

As esoteric as this may sound, the issue to me is this.  On my citizenship ID (born here, but got it to have photo ID before drivers' licenses had a photo), it talks about having the rights of a citizen, as well as "responsibilities" of a citizen.

Outside of not breaking the law, what are the MANDATED responsibilities of being a Canadian citizen?  

Voting?  Don't know if it's illegal not to vote, but kinda hard to enforce and/or prosecute if it is, given traditional voter turnouts at all levels.

Pay taxes?  See part about breaking the law - you work here, you pay taxes here.

Serve in the military?  Not with an all-vol military.

Support or agree with your government?  Well, this IS a democracy, and as long as you're not promoting hatred or counselling criminal activity, you can think and say what you like.

Barring any rules re:  what you have to do, it apprears you need only attend and have the passport.

By this yardstick, if someone moves back to their respective "old country" with Canadian citizenship and a passport, they're the same type of citizen as me visiting the same country if the feces hit the oscillator.

Now, could the "return messaging" have been better?  Perhaps.  I can't remember too many evacuators say clearly, "listen, this is a war zone - bullets are flying and men are dying.  We're getting people out who want to leave, but it's not always easy, or necessarily comfortable.  Still more comfortable than the shooting, though."  Then again, as government employees, what they could and couldn't say....  (I say no more because of a conflict of interest here as a gov't employee).

Even though we don't have two-tiered citizenship, how's this for a solution?  Those with proof of CURRENT residence in Canada get first dibs, followed by those who can't show a recent phone bill, tax bill, whatever.  If anyone says this might be onerous, I've found out they need up to three pieces of ID to issue a new Ontario health card (including proof of residence), so if one is travelling to unsettled places, it might not be too much to ask. 

Don't know how the bureaucrats would feel about that, but it's a start, no?

 

[HDE]

I see it as a "Yes we'll rescue you because you're a Canadian citizen, however..." sort of deal, particularly when they knowingly put themselves in harm's way again.  As Canadian citizens I'd imagine there could be a means of "debiting" their "entitlements".

 

[neko]

Now, could the "return messaging" have been better?  Perhaps.  I can't remember too many evacuators say clearly, "listen, this is a war zone - bullets are flying and men are dying.  We're getting people out who want to leave, but it's not always easy, or necessarily comfortable.  Still more comfortable than the shooting, though."  Then again, as government employees, what they could and couldn't say....  (I say no more because of a conflict of interest here as a gov't employee).

As the evacuees were fleeing because of the fighting they shouldn't need anyone to tell them that.

Even though we don't have two-tiered citizenship, how's this for a solution?  Those with proof of CURRENT residence in Canada get first dibs, followed by those who can't show a recent phone bill, tax bill, whatever.  If anyone says this might be onerous, I've found out they need up to three pieces of ID to issue a new Ontario health card (including proof of residence), so if one is travelling to unsettled places, it might not be too much to ask. 

Who's going to take a tax or phone bill on vacation with them? Besides evacuating them is fine, but they should have to cover the costs. If however they were actually residents here the government could foot the bill. And citizens who go to trouble spots should have to cover the costs of any government assistance they require to get themselves to safety, whether they are residents or not.

 

[3rd Horseman]

I was under the impression that the Canadian government did priorities the evacuees as fols:
priority one - Canadian citizen with current residence in Canada ie on vacation proved by a return ticket.
Pri 2 - Canadian citizen with long term visa and a residence in Canada.
Pri 3 - Canadian citizen living in Lebanon with residence in Canada
Pri 4 - Candian citizen living in Lebanon
and so on

  This was a huge issue and caused some of the complaints.

 

[ArmyRick]

Too often and too much, i find "Real Canadians" don't like the smell of the whole Lebanese evacuation affair. I am from the GTA and beleive me, I know many, many immagrants (all my grandparents are from european countries), everybody i talked to agrees at the grass roots, these guys became canadian when it was convient for them and only then 

 

[The Bread Guy]

As the evacuees were fleeing because of the fighting they shouldn't need anyone to tell them that.
Who's going to take a tax or phone bill on vacation with them? Besides evacuating them is fine, but they should have to cover the costs. If however they were actually residents here the government could foot the bill. And citizens who go to trouble spots should have to cover the costs of any government assistance they require to get themselves to safety, whether they are residents or not.

Wasn't clear - I meant communicating to the taxpayer that it may not be the Ritz getting out of a war zone.  Seems a lot of the complaints came through in the media, but nobody explaining, "hey, there's shooting, ya know."

As for bringing proof of residence, we've all learned to live with more security at airports, we could live with bringing one more piece of paper.

A number of people bring up the issue about rescues from places in the crapper - what about if you left when it sucked a long time ago, stayed here & became a citizen, then went back when it calmed down, only to have it heat up 10 years later?  Can't say they went right INTO harm's way when they returned, can one?

How about proof of evacuation insurance (exc. for gov't workers) if you're going into any of a list of what DFAIT considers risky-near-crappy countries?  Or making people sign a declaration when they pay for their ticket to any of these countries, indicating they understand there's no guarantee they'll be able to be pulled out right away if things go south?  Flying to Damascus to eventually get into LBN?  Too easy - your ticket is to Damascus, we'll get you outta Damascus.

 

[neko]

Wasn't clear - I meant communicating to the taxpayer that it may not be the Ritz getting out of a war zone.  Seems a lot of the complaints came through in the media, but nobody explaining, "hey, there's shooting, ya know."

Understood.
Yeah that probably would have helped stop the complaints on this end. Honestly though, war zone and ritz aren't generally an association one would make. 

As for bringing proof of residence, we've all learned to live with more security at airports, we could live with bringing one more piece of paper.

True we could adapt easily enough.

A number of people bring up the issue about rescues from places in the crapper - what about if you left when it sucked a long time ago, stayed here & became a citizen, then went back when it calmed down, only to have it heat up 10 years later?  Can't say they went right INTO harm's way when they returned, can one?

No because they wouldn't have in the above case. Not saying the Lebanese did either. Just that it should be a given that if you do go somewhere the government recommends against, you should be liable for all expenses incurred in getting your butt out of there. And you would need to understand that it might not happen right away.

How about proof of evacuation insurance (exc. for gov't workers) if you're going into any of a list of what DFAIT considers risky-near-crappy countries?  Or making people sign a declaration when they pay for their ticket to any of these countries, indicating they understand there's no guarantee they'll be able to be pulled out right away if things go south?  Flying to Damascus to eventually get into LBN?  Too easy - your ticket is to Damascus, we'll get you outta Damascus.

I don't think insurance is necessary, but a person knowingly going to a danger spot might wish to have it.
I believe we should rescue Canadians if at all possible from wherever they are in danger, just they may end up stuck with the bill.
I'm happy enough the government didn't demand reimbursement from rescued Canadians after the tsunami, but they were living here, paying taxes and all that.If there were any that lived elsewhere, well they should have had to repay Canada, or the country that they call home could have payed us back or rescued them in the first place. It's just an entitlement I don't feel they are, well, entitled to.

 

[couchcommander]

A number of people bring up the issue about rescues from places in the crapper - what about if you left when it sucked a long time ago, stayed here & became a citizen, then went back when it calmed down, only to have it heat up 10 years later? 

A Canadian citizen, residing in these places on a visa as a Canadian citizen.. yea sure I'd take them out as quickly as I could.

However, a Lebanese national, who came to Canada because it was convienent, became a Canadian citizen because it was convienent, then went back to Lebanon when it was convienent, and has been living as a Lebanese national back home because IT was now convienent....nah, go talk to the Lebanese government, or you can pay your own way out.

It's simple though, if you enter a country with a Canadian passport you are afforded all the rights, privledges, and protection our nation can afford you. If you want to enter or live on a different passport, then great, complain to that country when things go bad.

I suppose my entire beef is with the "I'm a Canadian when it suits me."

 

[warrickdll]

I believe that allowing Canadians to hold multiple citizenships to be a mistake.

There is no practical way to be completely and equally loyal to separate entities with separate agendas. This might not be much of a problem when the cultures are very similar, as in the US or UK, but that is only a happy coincidence - not a demonstration of the soundness of the principle.

What is needed is something more than Permanent Resident (Landed Immigrant) status, with its inherent restrictions on the time allowed outside of Canada, but still less than full citizenship. Maybe give "Honourary Citizenship" a real meaning.

 

[The Bread Guy]

If I read this correctly, a Senate Committee is going to give a sober second look at the evacuation effort:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/39/1/parlbus/chambus/senate/deb-e/039db_2006-10-24-E.htm?Language=E&Parl=39&Ses=1#55

Hon. Hugh Segal, pursuant to notice of September 28, 2006, moved:

That the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs be authorized to examine and report on the evacuation of Canadian citizens from Lebanon in July 2006; and

That the Committee submit its final report no later than March 30, 2007, and that the Committee retain all powers necessary to publicize its findings until April 30, 2007.

He said: Honourable senators, this past summer, as a result of sudden and unexpected circumstances, it was necessary for the Government of Canada to evacuate thousands of our citizens and permanent residents from Lebanon. The efforts of DFAIT staff, both within the region and here in Canada, the coordination required with the Department of National Defence and the extraordinary speed with which the evacuation was necessary is, in the committee's view, worth reviewing and assessing.

For this reason, the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs wishes to conduct an inquiry into this evacuation. The purpose of this inquiry would be to learn from our experiences. While much was made at the time with respect to perceived flaws in the operation, we must all admit that, in an exercise of this scale and the subsequent return to Canada of so many of our citizens so quickly, much also appears to have been done properly by our officials.

In a world as volatile as ours is today, I ask that colleagues approve this motion so that we might examine all that transpired, in order to help prepare the government for any other such eventuality. Experience is the best teacher. While we have the opportunity to question those who are on the front lines, either here or in the Middle East, I suggest that we take advantage of this opportunity. Heaven forbid the situation ever prevents itself again, but should we be faced with such an exercise in the future, we would be, I think, remorse in our duties as a committee had we not taken the opportunity to learn from the first experience and assess, in the most non-partisan and objective of ways, the best practices and areas of improvement that may emerge from that review.

Let me assure honourable senators that we plan no travel. We will have hearings here in Ottawa and we may use satellite teleconferencing to talk to officials in the Middle East

(....)

Hon. Marcel Prud'homme: ....  I feel more at ease, but I made my views known to the chairman. I am extremely concerned about this study. I say that, because I have read everything that has been said since the end of this sad event in Lebanon, where everybody started to talk about another subject, namely, dual citizenship. As brilliant and as tough as my colleague is, I think it will be difficult for him to keep the debate within the boundaries of what he would like us to study.

[Translation]
(....)
There is a high risk, I would suggest, that people who do not have the same good faith as Senator Segal could take the opportunity to engage in a debate within the broader debate on dual citizenship. This is something I have been agonizing over for 40 years. Let us imagine, for instance, that Canadian nationals could become members of Parliament in foreign countries.

[English]

We have enough division in this country, without having outside political parties coming into Canada to say, "Elect me to sit in someone else's country — dual citizenship."

(....)

There are forces in this country that are not as elegant as some of us here would like to be. Those forces could use this study for other purposes, with an intention that is not as clear or as pure as the one we would like to advance. I have read some of the material, and I did not like it. As honourable senators know, I represented a totally Canadien français — I do not use the word "Québécois" — district when I started. Over the years, I began to represent fewer and fewer Canadien français and Quebec nationalists and more and more new Canadians. These new Canadians have alerted me to that danger of debate on dual citizenship .... With the firm hand of the honourable senator in the chair, I trust that he will not go outside what he wants to study. However, the committee chair should be prepared to have people asking to be witnesses and, thereby, to extend the mandate of the committee. We will let the universe unfold, as an ex-Prime Minister once said. It is reluctantly that I did not adjourn the debate, in order to be gracious to the chair.

(....)

The Hon. the Speaker: Are honourable senators ready for the question?

Hon. Senators: Question!

The Hon. the Speaker: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

Motion agreed to.

 

[GAP]

CITIZENSHIP CONCERNS LINGER AFTER EVACUATION
Lebanese-Canadians Mike Blanchfield CanWest News Service Thursday, July 12, 2007
Article Link

OTTAWA - One year after the war in Lebanon sparked the mass evacuation of 15,000 Canadians, no one knows for sure how many Lebanese-Canadians actually went back to their established lives there, after their tax-payer-funded rescue.

But one thing is certain: the debate over Canadian dual national citizenship sparked by the crisis continues to simmer one year later, with hard feelings on both sides of the issue. Much of that may have been fuelled by an unsubstantiated report that suggested half those rescued simply went back to Lebanon.

Critics say the Conservative government's ongoing examination of dual citizenship is unfair or insensitive, and tarnishes many hardworking and loyal immigrants.

Others, including some of Lebanese descent, do not like the fact that some -- again, no one knows for sure how many -- Lebanese-Canadians simply went back to their established lives in Lebanon, and tucked away their Canadian passports for the next emergency.

"If you are on vacation and you are a taxpayer, you are entitled to get all the help that your government could afford," said Elias Bejjani, chairman of the Lebanese-Canadian Co-ordinating Council.

As for those who simply took the free ride -- a sealift from Beirut to Cyprus or Turkey and then a flight back to Canada -- and who don't pay taxes in Canada, Mr. Bejjani said they probably should have been billed.
Last fall, then-immigration minister Monte Solberg served notice that the government was going to review dual citizenship because Canadians want to know "that we're not just a port in a storm" for people who don't pay taxes from abroad but are "going to be using our social programs down the road."

The review is continuing under current Immigration Minister Diane Finley.

The issue was stoked by a television report, citing unnamed sources, that 7,000 of the 15,000 rescued Lebanese-Canadians went back to Lebanon within a month of their rescue.
In all, the rescue effort cost the federal government nearly $100 million.

That figure of 7,000, cited by CTV News, has been bandied about publicly, but the people in government you would expect would be aware of such a number simply do not know where it came from.

"Canada does not have exit controls so it doesn't track the movement of its citizens," said Dan Dugas, the spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay.

The one federal public servant who knows most about this subject, Tina Chiu is the chief of the immigration and ethno-cultural statistics program for Statistics Canada, agrees.

"There are a number of methodological challenges to that," Ms. Chiu explained.

For one, it is voluntary for Canadians to report where they are going to their government, she said.

That means signing your name at the Canadian Embassy of a country in which you have just landed, or registering your presence on-line.
More on link

 

[niceasdrhuxtable]

I've never really understood why this is much of an issue. I mean, if there were weekly or monthly mass evacuations going on then maybe we'd have to take a closer look at it but I don't think our treasury is heaving under the strain of the cost of evacuating Canadian citizens from war zones.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bumping this thread based on INITIAL reports re: Canada (as well as Germany and others) "urging" its citizens to evacuate from Lebanon ....

US allies urge citizens to leave Lebanon as drone strikes kill Hamas leader Saleh al-Aruri - Times of India

Middle East News: Many US allies, including Germany and Canada, issued advisories for their citizens to evacuate swiftly from Lebanon due to the recent drone strike in

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Germany, Canada urge citizens to leave Lebanon Swiftly | Al Bawaba

The speech by Hezbollah and the escalating tension along the Israel-Lebanon border have prompted more governments to encourage their citizens to leave

www.albawaba.com

This is the latest (updated around 0900ET/1400Z today) from GAC's LBN page ....

A little over 2 months ago, "Canada’s ambassador to Lebanon (said) the embassy and its staff are ready to assist the approximately 17,000 registered Canadians in the country should they need to evacuate, amid escalating tensions between Israel and Hezbollah ..."

Embassy in Lebanon prepared to help 17,000 Canadians evacuate if necessary, ambassador says

Canada's ambassador to Lebanon says the embassy and its staff are ready to assist the approximately 17,000 registered Canadians in the country should they need to evacuate, amid escalating tensions between Israel and Hezbollah.

www.ctvnews.ca

And for a bit of backstory on the 2006 evacuation, in addition to everything upthread here, this from the CF info-machine (also archived here) ....

Operation LION - Canada.ca

Historical information about Operation LION.

www.canada.ca

Usual initial report caveats apply.

 

[YZT580]

how many A330's have we taken delivery of? Looks like our procrastination vis-a-vis spending the money and effort necessary to get our forces into the 21st century is about to bite us in the ass.

 

[dapaterson]

how many A330's have we taken delivery of? Looks like our procrastination vis-a-vis spending the money and effort necessary to get our forces into the 21st century is about to bite us in the ass.

Why would the CAF operate evacuation flights? Lots of charters available.

 

[Spencer100]

17,000.... That's a lot of non taxpaying people with get out of trouble free passports.

But I think that was discussed at length 16 years ago up thread.....

The change is you have to pay from the third country onward this time.