The Electric Car Thread- Merged

[Sigger]

Sigh...

I understand the link I provided was squatted, I just like the photograph. The company website is genepax.co.jp/en FYI

That page and the specific article you reference prove you are wrong, it almost perfectly matches what we've been telling you

I am unsure as to when I have made any sort of comment in which you think I could be made right/wrong. I apologize for my ambiguousness.
I also have never said anything anybody has claimed in this topic to be wrong/right.

You obviously do not understand that my main point is that I am certain there is more than meets the eye.
I am not attempting to debate anything scientific as I am way out of my league(If you have not gathered). If I wanted to know how thermodynamics works I would google it. And due to this fact, the only thing I have learnt from you thus far, is the phrase "hippy dippy".
As for the whole Godzilla and maggot thing, I was being facetious. I did not think that someone who has "taken 2 years of engineering " would need a little smiley to notate this.

You can continue to pick apart every link, paragraph, word and syllable if you want, however, this is your mandate, proving nothing except how bored you are. This behaviour flatters me to think that you are more concerned with my inconsistencies and erroneous posts than the actual purpose of said posts.



† Every ounce of pressure used to type these replies, are solely intended for light hearted and friendly debate. Nothing is personal or snide.

 

[Strike]

This all sounds suspiciously like the group that said they had cloned a human, but refused to reveal said being and have them tested to prove their claim.  :

Although I do find this thread quite interesting, even if it is giving me flashbacks to my uni days of chem eng.  ;D

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Energy can neither be made or destroyed, it can only chgange form. If you want to use energy it has to come from somewhere. Water is already in a stable form. The only way to get 'water' into useable form is to add something to it. An electrical current will split the H from the O.  http://www.instructables.com/id/Separate-Hydrogen-and-Oxygen-from-Water-Through-El/

You can add chemicals to strip out the H.  NaBH4 has caused some interest.
http://ecsmeet6.peerx-press.org/ms_files/ecsmeet6/2007/05/20/00001588/00/1588_0_art_0_jicv9e.pdf

Now,  with that said,  here is a really funnt link: http://bestclicknow.net/CarOnWater4Gas/index.php?gclid=COmsy-XjjpQCFRKhxgodOyngfQ

and

http://car-hydrogen.net

 

[muskrat89]

A somewhat related article in today's paper:

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/phoenix_local_news_062408_water-to-gas.36b68e7c.html

$700 device turns water into fuel, sold in Chandler



03:54 PM Mountain Standard Time on Wednesday, June 25, 2008



PHOENIX -- "I spent way too much in fuel this year to not do this" says Casey Baldwin.



Water can stretch your gas dollars?


With several fleet vehicles, high gas prices almost put Baldwin out of business. He owns a business called "Countertops By Design".

But a new device - and some water - have helped him stay afloat.

"Now instead of filing up every two days, I'm doing it every three to four days. I'm saving hundreds of dollars a week" says Baldwin.

The hydrogen generator claims to maximize the gas in your tank by giving it a better burn.

Scientist Adrien Burkhart of Chandler is the brains behind the device.

"By adding hydrogen to that combustion chamber, we get you to a 95-plus percent burn rate. So now you're burning more fuel." claims Adrien Burkhart, Hydrogen Concepts owner

That answer may be confusing to most, but Burkhart says it's basic science. Water is made up of oxygen and hydrogen. The device converts water into fuel.

"...through electrolysis. A little electricity taken from your battery, you can break those down to the atomic level, so you end up with an oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms. So that's what we're taking into your air intake to enrich the air to get your a better burn rate from your existing gasoline." Burkhart explains.

Mark Castleman is a regional sales manager with Brakes Plus. He's never used the device, but it's certainly peaked his interest.

"If this product does what the gentleman claims.. It certainly can help fuel mileage, economy, performance, everything all around. Id certainly like to see it." says Castleman.

Still, he says drivers should be leery.

"Things you want to look at: it coincides with your manufacturer's warranty, that there's no long term effects after it's been on the road with it." Castleman explains.

The hydrogen generator has been around for 2 years, with some 20,000 units already in use across the country.

"We've got a few hundred thousand miles on a unit and they're still going. They're very robust, very simplistic." says Burkhart.

Several pieces make up the system. It's installed in the front of your vehicle. Total cost: about $700.

Burkhart says "We're trying to keep everything low cost so everybody can save money, reduce emissions and help the environment."

 

[c_canuk]

I've heard about these, they seem to be using the same idea as a hybrid, but instead of the stored energy going into a battery it's used to crack Hydrogen and used when extra power is needed like a hybrid pulls power from it's batteries when needed. A plus of this is it appearantly makes the combustion process hotter and faster. Deisel Trucks have been doing this for years with propane, but don't find a large difference unless the engine is turbocharged.

Now I find it a little hard to believe he's getting a 50% to 100% increase in mileage, there just isn't that much unburnt fuel in regular car's exhaust. I would assume it would be possible to get 5-10%

This would also cause your computer to advance the timing, to account for the faster burn to prevent detonation (when the chamber ignites before the piston is ready, causing the piston to want to reverse the direction of the crank... obviously very damaging to the engine.) If this requires the timing to be advanced farther than the computer can adjust it will cause premature engine failure and void your warranty though you should get a check engine light if this happens.

there has also been problems with the high temperatures of burning hydrogen in engines with ignition from the valves overheating, though thats straight hydrogen oxygen, not just mixing it in.

there are also systems injecting a bit of water to harness steam power when the fuel mixture ignites and vapourizes the water. There are also special 6 stroke engines that use 2 extra strokes to seperate water injection from fuel to avoid slowing the combustion.

There is also a company coming out with bolt on hybrids, you replace the rear axle on front wheel drive car, and it plugs into your computer to determine when the motor should act like a generator to rechage batteries in your trunk, or pull power from the batteries and drive the wheels providing acceleration

 

[Sigger]

Genepax has released a PDF on their engine.. Any one understand? Its all Japanese to me...

LINK

They also have more info about the system... Any ideas on what you see??
LINK

 

[retiredgrunt45]

Its been debunked as BS. Heres the link to Eco Geek. As I posted previously, that I would give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, well here it is.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/585/water-powered-cars-will-never-work.html

 

[c_canuk]

I love how page 10 of the PDF shows a stack of mystery elements showing a chemical reaction on one side, and the reverse on the other, and somehow extra electricity is generated with no other inputs.

steaming pile of BS...

I was hoping they had created an efficient way to store hydrogen as a solid but it seems it's just a lot of smoke and mirrors.

 

[Sigger]

Its been debunked as BS.

I do not believe this link debunks it. It only claims it to be BS.

The only ones to debunk this, IMO, would be the scientists who will look at the thing.
-----------------

It is true, that PDF looks pretty goofy.

 

[MedTechStudent]

Hehe

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/mean_automakers_dash_nations_hope

 

[Sigger]

So... I was wrong and you were right....

We at GENEPAX have strived to develop new technologies to enable environment friendly energy systems, to mitigate environmental risks such as those posed by global warming.　The systems that we have proposed have received warm words of support from many people. However, we have yet to overcome the many obstacles we face in the current world, to bring our systems to market. Moreover, the costs of development have become very large. As our resources are very limited, we need to retrench and reassess our resources and our development plans at this time, and we are accordingly closing our website.

We express our deep gratitude for the supportive messages we have received. We hope that you will continue to be supportive of efforts to develop cleaner and more environment friendly energies, and we will continue to strive to develop systems to preserve our environment.



February 10th, 2009
Yasuyuki Takahashi
Representative Director
GENEPAX

 

[Galahad]

Oh boy, my IC engines prof would have a field day with this. If you so much as mentioned the word hydrogen in class, you would subsequently be treated to an entire class-long rant about how hydrogen is the stupidest "fuel" on the planet.

Development cost too high? No wonder, its a dead-end technology, we wouldn't even waste our time on it if certain people didn't think it was a miracle because only water comes out the other end...

 

[c_canuk]

Well.... I wouldn't go quite that far,

We could abandon fossil fuels if we built enough nuclear reactors and used off peak hours to break water down to hydrogen that we then pushed through a pipeline system like natural gas to be used in the same way as well as vehicle fuel -> IC at first then fuel cell electrics when the tech is perfected and mass produced

if it can be stored in carbon nano tubes, the energy density problem could be solved, I think there are some systems that are using weak chemical bonds to store it as well that uses vehicle exhaust heat to release stored hydrogen. They aren't as dense as a liquid fuel, however they can get 100 km per tank, so it's feasible we'd just need a few more refuelling stations.

it could be good for the economy, we break our dependence on external oil, create massive construction projects in building the reactors and pipelines, and many long term jobs and businesses running the extra refuelling stations we'll need.

Not to mention that we'd end up owning the future of automobiles in that we'd probably have to manufacture our own as no one else would be using hydrogen large scale which would put Ontario Auto workers back to work, and thus should our experiment prove feasible other country's that emulate the system would possibly import our vehicles rather than try to duplicate our existing infrastructure.

 

[Galahad]

The only problem with fuel cell powered cars is that they are basically an electric car that uses hydrogen to store the electricity. Then you have losses making the hydrogen, storing the hydrogen, and converting it back into electricity. You lose around 50% of the energy doing this.

It would be much smarter to find a better way to store electricity directly, ie ultra-capacitors or some such device. The source-to-use efficiency if you can generate your own electricity, put it in you car and then drive it can be as high as 95%.

An ideal system would bee to have a wind turbine and/or solar panels at your house, which would generate energy to make hydrogen, store it in a big tank as a buffer (in case there is no sun or wind), use a fuel cell to power your home, and the extra energy to run your electric car.

Stationary fuel cells with cogeneration can have efficiencies higher than 90%, and you also get a furnace and water heater out of it. If you have an extra large fuel cell and use the extra power to run your car, you can be completely off the grid, generating all your own energy, for negligible cost. Plus you can sell your extra power back to the power company when you are not using it, so you are actually making money too.

 

[c_canuk]

well fuel cells are generally better for the environment than high efficiency batteries, and I think they have managed to get hydrogen's energy density in the chemical bond storage to at least as dense as Lithium Polyimer batteries, so it's not that bad a trade off. Liquified Hydrogen would probably even beat super capacitors for energy density.

the problem holding back electric cars isn't efficiency, it's energy density, efficiency is only part of the problem, and a 50% efficiency is a hell of a step up from gasoline based internal combustion. besides if we're using nuclear to power everything squeezing ever last little bit of efficiency out of a system becomes a bit more academic.

the ideal solution is not to store the vehicles' energy on board at all, if we could put a channel down the center of every road that contained an inductance coil, you could put up a pickup coil on the bottom of your car that slots into the channel, and only need a few KMs worth of onboard battery for parking lots and back alleys.

 

[CougarKing]

"Is it affordable?" will be another question running through prospective customer's minds.

Tesla Motors -- a Silicon Valley startup backed by entrepreneur Elon Musk, the South Africa-born cofounder of PayPal -- is making plans to roll out its second electric car. The company has released the details of its Tesla Model S.

While production is, at best, two-and-a-half years away, car enthusiasts are gobbling up the specs.

"If it does come out as promised -- even at its big price point -- it will still be quite a feat, Brian Gluckman, manager of media relations at AutoTrader.com, told TechNewsWorld.

The Model S is promising a 300-mile range -- this is not just an about-town commuting car -- and the ability to recharge the battery within 45 minutes. The Roadster, the first car Tesla produced, took several hours to recharge.

Mitsubishi, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Nissan, Ford and Hyundai are all developing electric vehicles with production scheduled for 2011. However, those vehicles, Gluckman pointed out, only have ranges of about 100 miles. Even the Ford's electric Focus is just a compact sedan, he said.

The Model S is also much larger, making it possible for a family to consider it.

"http://www.technewsworld.com/story/Tesla-Shows-Off-Family-Friendly-Electric-Car-66660.html"
"http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/mar2009/db20090326_679423.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_news+%2B+analysis"

This electric car can reach 60mph in just under 5 seconds. Tesla is taking orders for them as we speak...

 

 

 

http://www.teslamotors.com/design/gallery-body.php

 

[eurowing]

Do tell, where does the V8 fit? >  Silly car .... batteries are for starting the BIG engine.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Silly Car? 0 to 60 mhp in around 6 seconds, price similar to family sedan on the market now, the equivalent of 450 hp.  What else do you want in a car?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Somewhere to store the liquidized dead dinosaurs would be nice... ;D

 

[BradCon]

If more people researched and developed like this, we'd be far better off, and we wouldn't need drain the earth's supply of oil so damn fast.  Eventually the military will be able to utilize this technology as well,  that ought to save some money.