The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic

[IKnowNothing]

You can see that excluding home equity the wealth of Boomers doubles that of Millennials and with equity it is 9 times.

Uncontrolled for age, that data is simply showing that in aggregate for the average person wealth is a function of years of workforce participation.

 

[IKnowNothing]

My Dad pounded into me to buy land when you can cos god ain't making any more of it.

You're inadvertently making the point. It's not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty that there was cheap land/housing available when you were coming up. Just as it's not a failing of millenials/Z that there isn't when they are, and you shouldn't feel superior to them because of it.

Over the last 6 years real estate has completely decoupled from income. There's a planning issue on a societal level. This isn't about intergenerational conflict, just simple financial reality. The calculus has changed. Barring a complete collapse of the housing market there is a fundamental divide in expected lifetime wealth between those that got into the housing market in 2016 or prior (depending on sub region you could take that as far as 2019), and those that didn't. A lot (the majority in rural areas) of millenials actually fall into the "have" category. Older millenials that played the game well are actually exceptionally well set, if they avoided the temptation to overreach they've built multiple lifetimes worth of equity since buying homes in the mid-late oughts.

The ones that are being screwed are the 96's and later. It's no way their fault that a fixer upper starter home in rural Ontario is 400k plus.

Edit- timelines vary by province and region, but the trend is pretty consistent

 

[Weinie]

Unfortunately it’s not about how boomers planned individually for their own well-being long term. In that regard they are probably even better at it than any generation but they were given the tools and opportunity that others have not, no, what is meant by the second bullet is failure to plan long term from a societal perspective and what the political class decided to do.

All of this proves my point.

See here:

Aging in place: How Baby Boomers are breaking Canada's real estate market

In one of the tighest real estate markets ever recorded in Canada, Boomers are not letting go of their homes

nationalpost.com

Millennials vs. baby boomers: Why the cost of living has skyrocketed for young Canadians | Globalnews.ca

The reality for a typical young person is they have to go to school longer, land jobs that pay thousands of dollars less and face skyrocketing housing costs, one expert said.

globalnews.ca

The fact is that it was easier to get into home ownership despite high interest rates of that time also shows that the boomers had several advantages in order to do so.

Also: NIMBY attitudes of Boomers has led to issues in real estate.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

And no one is expecting you or others to feel any moral blame. Causal blame and recognizing that maybe the way boomers ran things though is another issue. And yes of course it is hindsight. But there was little foresight. I am just stating facts that have led to where millennials are sitting. You did what you did and why not? Those were the rules or opportunities of the time.

But let’s not pretend that millennials were given the same opportunities that Boomers had.

More on some of what I mused about. Like I said it’s well documented. People don’t have to like it but it is what it is. And history is already judging and I suspect when the millennials finally take the lead they won’t be too kind in their assessment of the world that Boomers left them.

A billionaire boomer blames his generation for ruining the economy for millennials

Boomers left future generations with debt and a broken economy, billionaire Howard Marks said. It says a lot about millennials' affordability crisis.

www.businessinsider.com

The Theft of a Decade: How The Baby Boomers Stole The Millennials' Economic Future

The Baby Boomers graduated into the slow-growth, high-inflation economy of the 1970s and early 1980s; so you might have thought that they would have shown greater sympathy when the 2008 financial crisis threatened their own children. Yet when the Great Recession struck, the Boomers—who had...

www.manhattan-institute.org

This article talks about how millennials never recovered from the Great Recession. We can argue what caused that…it also debunks a bit how millennials spend more than they earn.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/27/millennial-recession-covid/

Also plenty of literature on it.

Suck it up princess. Life is live.

 

[Kat Stevens]

No offence, but you and everyone like you fucked the world for everyone else. Nothing personal.

 

[Remius]

No offence, but you and everyone like you fucked the world for everyone else. Nothing personal.

I wouldn’t blame the Boomers for that specifically but I understand why millennials are angry at those that did.

And no I take nothing in this thread personally and neither should you lol.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I wouldn’t blame the Boomers for that specifically but I understand why millennials are angry at those that did.

And no I take nothing in this thread personally and neither should you lol.

I guess I should have put that in quotations

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You're inadvertently making the point. It's not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty that there was cheap land/housing available when you were coming up. Just as it's not a failing of millenials/Z that there isn't when they are, and you shouldn't feel superior to them because of it.

Over the last 6 years real estate has completely decoupled from income. There's a planning issue on a societal level. This isn't about intergenerational conflict, just simple financial reality. The calculus has changed. Barring a complete collapse of the housing market there is a fundamental divide in expected lifetime wealth between those that got into the housing market in 2016 or prior (depending on sub region you could take that as far as 2019), and those that didn't. A lot (the majority in rural areas) of millenials actually fall into the "have" category. Older millenials that played the game well are actually exceptionally well set, if they avoided the temptation to overreach they've built multiple lifetimes worth of equity since buying homes in the mid-late oughts.

The ones that are being screwed are the 96's and later. It's no way their fault that a fixer upper starter home in rural Ontario is 400k plus.

Edit- timelines vary by province and region, but the trend is pretty consistent

There is a planning issue. Know who was in charge of the countries finances, economy, taxes, and a myriad of other ridiculous ventures, for those six years?

We Boomers took advantage of the fact that we had disposable income and governments that actually wanted to govern. Now there is none of that. We had governments that wanted lift us up and help us fend for ourselves, not make us destitute and needy on the government.
I will admit to one faux pas we made, that still echoes horribly in todays society. We made it impossible to get a job as a fry cook, unless you had Gr 12. We spent a generation trying to take labourers and make them doctors, lawyers and engineers. We failed ourselves on that issue. As the Greatest Generation died off, many Boomers took over the family businesses. Now that the Boomers are disappearing, the family businesses are disappearing fast also. There's too much red tape, filings, tax hoops, like inheritance tax, which strips survivors of their family property because the tax and government demands are ridiculous. So you sell the family business to pay your taxes, and when you've done that, the government still bankrupts you. We created a gap and a class system of white collar and blue collar. A real, identifiable gap. We lost our penchant for good physical labour. You don't need Gr 12 to work on an assembly line. Am I laying a lot of blame on the current holders of the Iron Throne? Damn right I am. Millennials problems, wealth and support have all dwindled at a staggering rate since 2015. We could have a massive influx of labourers, working for good pay. However, I will accept the blame for the education level Boomers imposed on workers that don't need it. People learned how to do well paying work, in trades by placing apprentices under a master, who decided when you were ready to go off on your own. You can learn highly skilled jobs, without Grade 12, by osmosis. But that decision is up to the apprentice to do it and the masters are dying off. We have an apprentice program now that doesn't serve the need of the market. Unions and government red tape and rules have ruined the relationship by strangling the apprentice system. We got those jobs by walking around worksites and asking "Hey, need any help?" If they liked your work ethic and you liked the job, you could learn a trade without Grade 12. Can't do that now.

BUT:

Millennials helped elect their own demise.

It's not their fault, but they should be looking to the government they helped elect, who have destroyed the economy, the housing market, innovation and threw thousands upon thousands of Millennials out of work in the high paying oil and gas sector

And now we circle back to the Decline of the Liberal Government.

You will own nothing and you will be happy.

 

[FJAG]

We made it impossible to get a job as a fry cook, unless you had Gr 12.

Fortunately, the education system ensures that everyone who sits in a chair in school long enough graduates with a grade twelve "education".

 

[Brad Sallows]

While they exist, I doubt that the well-paying jobs in trades exist in large numbers. Higher education in worthwhile subjects still yields a large financial payoff. Over-education, or education in subjects not well-regarded, does not. Pursuing an education and career path of choice is a right, but a payoff is not. I suspect perceptions of the way things are, are coloured by what are merely poor individual choices in a time when social programs and society mitigate the fallout of poor individual choices. The difference is stark between a society in which living with parents well past the age of 20 is possible, and one in which leaving school means leaving home.

The generation which raised the Boomers had experienced the Depression and WWII. They were frugal, and passed that on. Although the postwar economic boom changed habits, Boomers didn't become spendthrifts. At least as young adults their consumption habits never came close to what people spend today on luxuries and entertainment. Everything about their lives was comparatively modest. I suspect part of their ultimate financial strength came from marrying young and staying married - raising kids when you don't have a lot of money is cheaper because there's no money to spend.

Real estate costs depend mainly on land costs. It is simply the case that most of the land close in to the places people want to live and work is occupied. That was always going to happen. The only real fixes are to aim for zero population growth rate and stop transferring money to people who are already reasonably well off. Either you vote for that if you can, or you don't.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You're inadvertently making the point. It's not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty that there was cheap land/housing available when you were coming up. Just as it's not a failing of millenials/Z that there isn't when they are, and you shouldn't feel superior to them because of it.

Over the last 6 years real estate has completely decoupled from income. There's a planning issue on a societal level. This isn't about intergenerational conflict, just simple financial reality. The calculus has changed. Barring a complete collapse of the housing market there is a fundamental divide in expected lifetime wealth between those that got into the housing market in 2016 or prior (depending on sub region you could take that as far as 2019), and those that didn't. A lot (the majority in rural areas) of millenials actually fall into the "have" category. Older millenials that played the game well are actually exceptionally well set, if they avoided the temptation to overreach they've built multiple lifetimes worth of equity since buying homes in the mid-late oughts.

The ones that are being screwed are the 96's and later. It's no way their fault that a fixer upper starter home in rural Ontario is 400k plus.

Edit- timelines vary by province and region, but the trend is pretty consistent

People also forget that places like North Vancouver were not as desirable when I was growing up here, it was far rougher and more blue collar, hence the lower property prices. If you want to cast blame, it was the people with money and developers that drove out the average worker and made things to expensive. Coupled with policies that allowed overseas money to flood the market and drive prices beyond the average wage. Tie landownership to being a PR or a Citizen, remove numbered companies and have peoples professions listed on property documents.

 

[mariomike]

We moved away from an OJT model workforce to one that requires more education than is really required.

From a purely selfish point of view, as a possible future client, rather than a provider, I am thankful the new breed is better educated than we were.

 

[IKnowNothing]

People also forget that places like North Vancouver were not as desirable when I was growing up here, it was far rougher and more blue collar, hence the lower property prices. If you want to cast blame, it was the people with money and developers that drove out the average worker and made things to expensive. Coupled with policies that allowed overseas money to flood the market and drive prices beyond the average wage. Tie landownership to being a PR or a Citizen, remove numbered companies and have peoples professions listed on property documents.

I don't want to cast blame, just trying to point out the financial reality people are facing and take the temperature down a bit. I like the bold a lot.

@Fishbone Jones , you missed the point of my post. Regardless of whether a fry cook or assembly line worker has grade 12, it's damn near impossible for them to get ahead at those wages.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The financial reality is downstream from who people choose to vote for and the policies they support. There's a direct line from things like tax cuts and government-paid daycare to increasing real estate prices.

 

[YZT580]

Fortunately, the education system ensures that everyone who sits in a chair in school long enough graduates with a grade twelve "education".

A side note to the system: high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making. All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed. There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10. We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers. Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.

 

[Kat Stevens]

A side note to the system: high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making. All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed. There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10. We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers. Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.

Q; Know what the Ontario teachers union says when the Russian mob in Toronto flexes it’s muscles?
A; “Cute. Hold my beer.”

 

[IKnowNothing]

A side note to the system: high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making. All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed. There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10. We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers. Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.

Somewhat correct. Tech is still alive and well in many schools, bolstered by co-op programs. And while there is an accreditation requirement it has been streamed for tech/vocational to enter with HS and 5 years paid in the trade in question instead of undergrad. Good tech teachers and programs are absolute gold for the schools that have the space and funding to establish shops, off-site work busses etc.

 

[FJAG]

A side note to the system: high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making. All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed. There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10. We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers. Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.

That's too bad. I actually started Grade 9 in Scarborough in what was then called "Science, Technology and Trades" which gave me six shop classes: wood, metal, automotive, electrical, machine and design - it was 100% male. The other two choices were "Arts and Science" which took you to Grade 13 and was the university prep stream, and Business and Commerce which was basically typing, bookkeeping and secretarial - the latter being 100% female. Both ST&T and B&C were Grade 12 level and the best you could do with that was Ryerson at the time which was then a polytechnical.

I transferred to A&S for Grade 10 primarily because a new high school was opening up just down the street from where I lived (rather than a 15 minute bus ride for the one I was in previously) and it didn't have an ST&T program but it did have A&S with a shop option which I took for my remaining years and which led me to joining the school's stage crew.

I think the thing for many boards and schools is that shop classes were much harder to manage and fund (not to mention safety issues) then a history or English class. That of course is short sighted in the extreme but a reality amongst bureaucracies. I went briefly to work as an electrician apprentice after high school before transferring from the ResF to the RegF. The shop experience has served me well in life. My wife and I do all our own home renovations from fine cabinet work to building an addition onto our house including drafting and wiring and plumbing. I simply can't comprehend folks that have no idea which end of a hammer to strike a nail with.

ST&T was a great career stream which probably covered a good part of what community college teaches now during first year. It got young folks earning a paycheck much earlier in life then they do now. Most of the guys I had started Grade 9 with had been on the job somewhere for two or three years before I joined the Army after Grade 13.

 

[OldSolduer]

A side note to the system: high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making. All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed. There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10. We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers. Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.

My mum - who was 100 when she passed - told me in Scotland/UK there were three streams:

The Professions - Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers etc

The Trades - Electric, Gas, Plumbing, Carpentry etc

The Laborers - those that would not fit anywhere else.

 

[Nightingale93]

I'm a Millennial, very close to GenX but still in the Millennial cohort.

I believe the vast majority of Millennials, Boomers, GenX Canadians, nowadays, are all mostly lazy and entitled. I don't even think it's an age thing, I think it's a Canadian Society thing.

This is now a Country where everyone wants a piece but nobody thinks they have to put in any elbow grease to get it.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, you gotta work at it, probably harder than anyone in the recent past has.


That's because Millenials don't know how to accumulate wealth. They don't understand cashflow, they live off credit and are in constant debt.

There are plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money. I work as a Switchman/Conductor right now for a Class 1 Railroad, the average Conductor at my terminal makes over $100,000.00 a year with the top earners making arouns $140,000.00. Locomotive Engineers (the direct promotion) make between $160,000.00 and $200,000.00 a year.

Want to know what the qualifications are to get in to the trade? High School GED and you show up to work when they call you and do your work safely and without complaint.

We actually can't hire anyone right now because nobody wants to do the work. Don't get me wrong, it's hard work, I just got called in and am going to work from midnight until probably 10am tomorrow morning in 0 degree temperatures and rain, but we are well compensated for it.

The only people we are actually able to hire seem to be immigrants. The average Canadian youth seems to think this type of work is beneath them.

And where on earth do people get these jobs in the first place? It isn’t as simple as just have a “high school diploma and show up”. Pretty much every job out there that isn’t a fast food joint wants you have “MiNiMuM tHrEe yEaRs ExPiErEnCe” or some bogus crap like that, even though a 10 year old can do it. Literally no on the job training at all since they want all the workers to have “past experience”
So no, there aren’t exactly “plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money”

 

[Brad Sallows]

If ordinary "shop" classes as they existed when I knew them have been degraded, someone has really f*cked up. Probably someone with one or more degrees.