The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic

[Fishbone Jones]

Remember Paul Martin?

“The minority will not be dictated to by the majority “

In Canada that will never happen

I knew Paul Senior. Delivered his paper and coffee when he was home. He used to come and sit in my dad's garage and shoot the shit for hours. He is the last honest Liberal I knew.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In the latter case, resulting in manilla envelopes full of cash to the PM.

Which has what to do with votes? But if you want to talk payoffs and bribes, Mulroney was an amatuer. The real pro is the one that takes our tax money, launders it through third world despots and projects with no paperwork. Then collect their portion either off shore or donated into their favourite Foundation. Or use it to buy standing at WEF.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

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[Fishbone Jones]

From what I have seen, you can tell who a riding voted for based on the condition of the roads.

Feds don't fix the roads in my city. Our city does.....and my taxes. It doesn't matter who is sitting on the Iron Throne.

Our municipal council, professionally, has zero party affiliation. There are no red, orange or blue signs during our municipal elections. Nor do they receive any support from the provincial and federal riding associations

 

[RangerRay]

In the Senate, give each province an equal number of seats regardless of size. Give each territory a smaller number. Would be better if it was elected, but baby steps.

Next, make the House of Commons a truly representation by population body. End special exemptions for provinces like Prince Edward Island and Quebec (except for the territories, they get one each). Rural ridings have equal populations as urban ridings. Use the population of PEI as a benchmark for riding population so they have at least one MP not shared with another province.

The biggest (insurmountable?) roadblock would be the provincial governments because they have the most to lose. The premiers like their Council of the Federation to be a de facto Senate, but can anyone think of anything useful they have done?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In the Senate, give each province an equal number of seats regardless of size. Give each territory a smaller number. Would be better if it was elected, but baby steps.

Next, make the House of Commons a truly representation by population body. End special exemptions for provinces like Prince Edward Island and Quebec (except for the territories, they get one each). Rural ridings have equal populations as urban ridings. Use the population of PEI as a benchmark for riding population so they have at least one MP not shared with another province.

The biggest (insurmountable?) roadblock would be the provincial governments because they have the most to lose. The premiers like their Council of the Federation to be a de facto Senate, but can anyone think of anything useful they have done?

You have to remove the power of the PM to solely decide, on their own, who will be a SC judge or senator.

 

[IKnowNothing]

When I read @Halifax Tar 's proposal, my first thought was to dismiss it out of hand as fundamentally undemocratic. But as the various challenges and defenses came up a couple words kept sticking out.

Interests. Problems. Very interesting word choices, which, depending on how you define them actually lend credence to a departure towards a more regional, population based approach to certain portfolios.

If we draw a hard red line between regional interests and problems and regional views on national issues and values I can see where the proposal has merit. It's completely pie in the sky hypothetical, and next to impossible to implement, but it would be interesting to see if a more regionally weighted body could do a better job steering the ship on the economy/ business taxation/regulation so that regional livelihoods are protected from tyranny by the majority, and a collaborative approach is taken to pursue and achieve a thriving economy that is better for all Canadians.

That being said, imposing religion/values/personal view on morality is NOT a regional interest. It would only work if the majority had ironclad protection from the minority dictating regional views on national issues and values.

 

[Halifax Tar]

When I read @Halifax Tar 's proposal, my first thought was to dismiss it out of hand as fundamentally undemocratic. But as the various challenges and defenses came up a couple words kept sticking out.

Interests. Problems. Very interesting word choices, which, depending on how you define them actually lend credence to a departure towards a more regional, population based approach to certain portfolios.

If we draw a hard red line between regional interests and problems and regional views on national issues and values I can see where the proposal has merit. It's completely pie in the sky hypothetical, and next to impossible to implement, it would be interesting to see if a more regionally weighted body could do a better job steering the ship on the economy/ business taxation/regulation so that regional livelihoods are protected from tyranny by the majority, and a collaborative approach is taken to pursue and achieve a thriving economy that is better for all Canadians.

That being said, imposing religion/values/personal view on morality is NOT a regional interest. It would only work if the majority had ironclad protection from the minority dictating regional views on national issues and values.

I appreciate your input.

I completely recognize its "pie in the sky", and will never happen.

All I want to see is all areas of this country get equal representation for our interests and concerns.

I voted for JT in 2015. Because of his stance to decriminalize marijuana and his statement that that election was to be our last FPTP. Since then he's been nothing but a disappointment. And his 180 on FPTP has soured me for the foreseeable future against the LPC.

 

[Remius]

I appreciate your input.

I completely recognize its "pie in the sky", and will never happen.

All I want to see is all areas of this country get equal representation for our interests and concerns.

I voted for JT in 2015. Because of his stance to decriminalize marijuana and his statement that that election was to be our last FPTP. Since then he's been nothing but a disappointment. And his 180 on FPTP has soured me for the foreseeable future against the LPC.

Both were good reasons to vote for something as opposed to against. I voted against the CPC in 2015 because of the procedural shenanigans, omnibus bills, tired government and the gradual centralisation of power in the PMO. But at least the opposition LPC were offering some things I was on board with.

I voted against the LPC last time in the hopes that the CPC could become a decent alternative again. Trudeau also continued to centralise power in the PMO and also employed procedural shenanigans. Not much to vote for either way but was voting for a moe centrist CPC.

Next time is a toss up. Not seing much to vote for but campaigns matter and we’ll see. Not a fan of PP or JT. But I have a liking for a few LPC ministers but haven’t identified any CPC critics I like just yet. So maybe leaning red slightly in the hopes they right themselves towards the middle. I have my doubts that PP will move to the Center.

Time will tell but in 2024 the LPC will be a very tired party.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Both were good reasons to vote for something as opposed to against. I voted against the CPC in 2015 because of the procedural shenanigans, omnibus bills, tired government and the gradual centralisation of power in the PMO. But at least the opposition LPC were offering some things I was on board with.

I voted against the LPC last time in the hopes that the CPC could become a decent alternative again. Trudeau also continued to centralise power in the PMO and also employed procedural shenanigans. Not much to vote for either way but was voting for a moe centrist CPC.

Next time is a toss up. Not seing much to vote for but campaigns matter and we’ll see. Not a fan of PP or JT. But I have a liking for a few LPC ministers but haven’t identified any CPC critics I like just yet. So maybe leaning red slightly in the hopes they right themselves towards the middle. I have my doubts that PP will move to the Center.

Time will tell but in 2024 the LPC will be a very tired party.

I try to find a party that best represents me.

Currently, that's nearly impossible.

 

[IKnowNothing]

All I want to see is all areas of this country get equal representation for our interests and concerns.

As a lifelong rural Ontarian I sympathize.

And as I said, I think there's merit to re-evaluating how regional economic and infrastructural interests are weighted in our system. But unless those can be separated from values/issues I think what we have is by far the "less bad"

 

[Halifax Tar]

As a lifelong rural Ontarian I sympathize.

And as I said, I think there's merit to re-evaluating how regional economic and infrastructural interests are weighted in our system. But unless those can be separated from values/issues I think what we have is by far the "less bad"

Part of democracy is allowing discussion on topics we don't agree with.

Can you expand on your statement ?

 

[Haggis]

I voted for JT in 2015. Because of his stance to decriminalize marijuana and his statement that that election was to be our last FPTP. Since then he's been nothing but a disappointment. And his 180 on FPTP has soured me for the foreseeable future against the LPC.

Which of the following probable Liberal election promises would bring you back to Team Red?

• Decriminalization of soft drugs?
• An end to civilian firearms ownership?
• Universal Basic Income?
• Pardons for "returning foreign travellers"?
• National moratorium on hydrocarbon fuel exploration and production?
• Reduced sentences for crime against the person committed by offenders from marginalized communities?
• Ending detentions and deportations of Roxham Road refugees?
• Strengthening ties with China and reciprocal policing arrangements between the RCMP and the Chinese FSB?
• National Internet content management standards?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Which of the following probable Liberal election promises would bring you back to Team Red?

• Decriminalization of soft drugs?
• An end to civilian firearms ownership?
• Universal Basic Income?
• Pardons for "returning foreign travellers"?
• National moratorium on hydrocarbon fuel exploration and production?
• Reduced sentences for crime against the person committed by offenders from marginalized communities?
• Ending detentions and deportations of Roxham Road refugees?
• Strengthening ties with China and reciprocal policing arrangements between the RCMP and the Chinese FSB?
• National Internet content management standards?

His 180 on FPTP elections was fairly early in his mandate. This almost instantly alienated me from them.

But I am happy with what they have done with marijuana and MAID.

As I have said, he (JT) and by extension the LPC, have been a disappointment. I am not sure they have the ability to walk back their stance on various items for me vote for them ever again.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Part of democracy is allowing discussion on topics we don't agree with.

Can you expand on your statement ?

Whether you define the power dynamic as interprovincial or rural/urban an unfortunate byproduct of vote concentration is that certain less peopled places are disadvantaged politically. In an ideal world the "regions" would be better equipped to advocate for their wellbeing on economic and infrastructure interests.

But in said ideal world rectifying the above cannot come at the cost of enabling a minority to dictate to the majority on social issues, the overall direction of the nation etc.

 

[Haggis]

His 180 on FPTP elections was fairly early in his mandate. This almost instantly alienated me from them.

But I am happy with what they have done with marijuana and MAID.

More regulation is coming on cannabis. The likely outcome is that it will be more controlled and more taxed.

MAID, while well intentioned, is spiraling out of control. It is, IMO, more available than it should be. However, it is now endorsed by at least one staffer at VAC as a solution.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Whether you define the power dynamic as interprovincial or rural/urban an unfortunate byproduct of vote concentration is that certain less peopled places are disadvantaged politically. In an ideal world the "regions" would be better equipped to advocate for their wellbeing on economic and infrastructure interests.

But in said ideal world rectifying the above cannot come at the cost of enabling a minority to dictate to the majority on social issues, the overall direction of the nation etc.

I think that's why we need multiple levels of government, so you can let local orgs deal with just local things. The problem is that very few issues are just local, and locals don't have resources to deal with really big problems. Similarly, building a big industry that dumps stuff into a river impacts everyone down stream so a lot of things aren't really local.

Even locally you run into urban/rural divide, especially in the big cities that cover huge regions.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

. People are angry and other people don't see why

I get it now Kat, just cracked my last bottle of Saskatoon Berry Moonshine.....I'm angry that I'm not heading back out there until next summer.

 

[Infanteer]

This thread is epic.

 

[Halifax Tar]

More regulation is coming on cannabis. The likely outcome is that it will be more controlled and more taxed.

MAID, while well intentioned, is spiraling out of control. It is, IMO, more available than it should be. However, it is now endorsed by at least one staffer at VAC as a solution.

We will see what happens with cannabis. Also I am all for higher sin taxes, and we should do the same with sex work. Open it up, regulate it and tax the crap out of it.

As for MAID, like it or not, it is what some people want. As long as it stays the sound mind choice of the patient I am happy. Who am I to tell someone no you aren't allowed to die yet ? Your body your choice, right ?