The CF policy on laser eye surgery for Pilots? Unfair?

[mdh]

I recently noticed that the US Navy allows its pilot candidates to get laser eye surgery in order to qualify as a pilot and it's led me to question the CF's policy on it.  Lots of potentially excellent pilot candidates are being turned away because of it, and I wonder if you guys feels it's time to revisit the Air Force's position? IIRC serving pilots in the CF are in fact authorized to undergo the surgery to maintain their visions standards - yet potential applicants aren't. I know life ain't fair but sometimes you gotta wonder. Just curious as to what the board's take on it is?

 

[aesop081]

In relative terms, this is a new issue for the CF and i am sure that i due time , the policy will change. Even though the US is forging ahead, i don't think we know enough about the long term effects, if any, that are involved, to rush into anything. I know that for myself, if i was to get it done, i would be grounded for 6 months at least.

i don't think that the policy is unfair, just prudent, but i do think that in time, it will all change.

Inch, your take ?

 

[mdh]

Hi Aesop081,

I see your point on the "prudence" of the CF's current policy - it's an argument I can accept (I could even understand it if it's a traditional way to narrow down the considerable list of folks who want to be military pilots) - except that it's not applied consistently. If it's prudent not to let recruits in with eye surgery, why is it prudent to let serving pilots get the operation? If anything you could argue that it's less prudent for serving pilots/air crew (in some cases flying high performance CF-18s) to be allowed to get an operation deemed experimental or lacking in sufficient research. I guess my question boils down to this: what does the US Navy know that the CF doesn't?

 

[Inch]

Actually, we're not permitted to get it done, ever. We can wear corrective lenses and contacts, but laser surgery is out of the question at this point. I'm not too sure where you heard that but it's wrong.

I agree with aesop, the long term effects of it aren't known and we're just being prudent and cautious. The effects of low pressure (ie altitude, and before you mention it, airliners are pressurized to about 8,000ft) or the effects of "G" aren't known either, or at least to the point to satisfy DRDC and the CF. I've also heard that night vision is not all that good for people after the surgery, thus it's not perfect and will not be permitted for CF pilots until it is further researched.

To answer your question, I have no idea what the USN knows that we don't. I do know that I can't even take Advil and go flying while they allow their pilots to take "uppers" to keep them awake which is a strict no-no here.

 

[Zoomie]

<snip>(I could even understand it if it's a traditional way to narrow down the considerable list of folks who want to be military pilots) -

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head there MDH.  Even if tests and data come back from the USN stating that LASIK is OK for aircrew, I think that the CF will continue to screen out anyone who has had the surgery. My father has had the surgery and he still needs glasses, it isn't perfect, which is what the CF wants of its potential pilot candidates.

 

[mdh]

Actually, we're not permitted to get it done, ever. We can wear corrective lenses and contacts, but laser surgery is out of the question at this point. I'm not too sure where you heard that but it's wrong.

Thanks for clarifying that Inch - thought I got that tidbit off another thread on this site but I probably misread it.

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head there MDH.  Even if tests and data come back from the USN stating that LASIK is OK for aircrew, I think that the CF will continue to screen out anyone who has had the surgery. My father has had the surgery and he still needs glasses, it isn't perfect, which is what the CF wants of its potential pilot candidates.

Right Zoomie, I get it,

Thanks for your insight guys, cheers, mdh

 

[Armageddon]

It is of my understanding that at the present time there are a limited number of aircrew members that have had it done and are being allowed in to roles such as navigator.  From what I know they are being studied as to what the effects actually are on these people.  Right now this is only second hand information as I know of one person personally that has had it done.  But I will check into it and get you more detailed info as soon as I can.  Either way I think it is still a long long way off before the CF reverses their decision on the matter for pilots and aircrew in general.

 

[Torlyn]

It is of my understanding that at the present time there are a limited number of aircrew members that have had it done and are being allowed in to roles such as navigator.   From what I know they are being studied as to what the effects actually are on these people.   Right now this is only second hand information as I know of one person personally that has had it done.   But I will check into it and get you more detailed info as soon as I can.   Either way I think it is still a long long way off before the CF reverses their decision on the matter for pilots and aircrew in general.

I had laser surgery done, and have had no problem applying for ANAV, the recruiting office told me that it only applies to pilot applicants.

T

 

[mdh]

Good afternoon gents,

Appreciate your comments on the topic.  I think Zoomie has highlighted the real reason for this policy - it's a performance restriction (based on real tangible concerns as noted by Aesop and Inch) that helps shrink the gene pool of pilot applicants - not that's there anything wrong with that since standards are standards in my view.  However I'm not sure that it's going to be a defensible policy over the long run. As more research becomes available (assuming it shows a clean bill of health) the policy might look more and more archaic and arbitrary.  The US Navy's air service is hardly a second-rate outfit, and I suspect a barrack-room lawyer out there will challenge the CF policy one day and force a re-evaluation. Perhaps that would lead to an opening up of additional talent applying to the MOC who would otherwise not qualify? Would that not be a good thing? 

 

[Inch]

mdh, you may see some barrack room lawyers try to make a play at this, but unless they can produce verifiable medical evidence that no hazards exist for pilots receiving laser treatment, you'll continue to see it as a block to any would be pilots who've had the procedure.

If they do open it up, it can't be a bad thing, it'll be far more competitive in the application process since there would logically be more applicants, thus you'd end up with better people getting the job (theoretically).

 

[saintjoseph]

I have the understanding that DRDC has recently finished with a study on the possibility of allowing laser eye surgery for pilots and decided that for now it will not be allowed, for the aforementioned reasons of how such a surgery will affect the eyes at low pressure and under high strain and forces. i think they primarily looked at older types of laser surgery though. A flight surgeon in edmonton was also mentioning that there is some uncertainty about how laser surgery affects the structural integrity of the eyeball, and whether it heals well enough to be able to withstand the stresses inherent in combat flight.

I was told by my opthamologist (former eye-sight tester for CF, and apparently a laser eye surgery pioneer in Canada) that it isn't only the USN that allows pilots with laser surgery, but that many other coutries allow it too...Australia, I think the UK does, and other european nations. I can also see the CF's point...they are allowing us to fly multi-million dollar aircraft, and they don't want to have such an unknown messing those aircraft up. Plus, maybe the number of applicants that have had laser surgery is only a fraction of pilot applicants anyways, even if they could be top notch pilots.

It is amazing what the laser surgery can do though....a buddy of mine had terrible eyes, and after surgery he now has 20/15 vision...amazing!

 

[mdh]

Hi Saintjoseph,

I don't want to be seen flogging a dead horse on this since I really have no personal stake in this whatsoever, but if it's true that several airforces have given a green light to eye surgery beyond the USN, then the CF's policy could be declared at best "extraordinarily conservative" in its estimation of the potential risk.

But as has already been noted on this thread, I suspect it may have less to do with science than convenience - if you can demand physical perfection in candidates, and still get a good number of applicants, then why not?  

But I would go a step further and posit this radical proposition - I don't think it matters one iota if you wear glasses (assuming they're not coke bottles of course) as a pilot flying modern military aircraft including fighters (although I know my pilot friends may strongly disagree).   My father eventually wore glasses while flying CF104s and it didn't impact his capabilities in the slightest (in fact he claimed to be able to see bogies well before his wingmen since he was corrected to better than 20/20, how's that for irony?).

Infantry guys, for example, are much more likely to get smacked around in the mud and ooze and they are allowed to have corrected vision. And although having the ability to see the Hun in the Sun is still a vital skill for for combat pilots a lot of visuals are right in front of your nose in the cockpit HUD.

Certainly in the commercial flying world it's no longer an issue (even though at one time Air Canada insisted on candidates having 20/20 IIRC) - and yes I realize that military flying has other physical demands.

I would sugges that the days of open cockpit flying are long over, and even though the air force insists on 20/20 - it could be described as a quaint holdover from the past, and - as a requirement in its pilot candidates - not much more justifiable than insisting on all candidates having a tailwheel endorsement or knowing how to handprop your machine.

I guess you can start flogging me now instead of that dead horse cheers all, mdh

 

[George Wallace]

mdh

The days of "open cockpit flying" aren't really over.  As many of our pilot candidates do not move on to Fighters, most land up in Transport or Helicopters.  To this day we still fly a lot of missions in our choppers without doors - not exactly the "open" that you may have ment, but still open.

With regard to corrective lenses, it is a good question.  Many pilots wear sunglasses, so how would corrective lenses be any great problem?

GW

 

[Inch]

I would sugges that the days of open cockpit flying are long over, and even though the air force insists on 20/20 - it could be described as a quaint holdover from the past, and - as a requirement in its pilot candidates - not much more justifiable than insisting on all candidates having a tailwheel endorsement or knowing how to handprop your machine.

Not too sure what you mean by open cockpit, care to elaborate before I respond? Tailwheel endorsements? Never heard of it, in fact I'd never flown one before the Sea King and hand propping really ceased once we started getting bigger engines. Try hand propping a 12 cylinder RR Merlin and hand propping a turbine is pretty futile. Maybe those were requirements in the 20's, but certainly not much later than that.

Speaking of getting smacked around, try doing low level nav in a helo at 250ft on a summer day. Those glasses better be well fitted to your head because they will get bumped around.

George, not too many people wear sunglasses, only multi guys cruising around at 15,000+ ft. All helo pilots wear helmets as do the fast movers and our helmets have 2 visors, a clear one and a tinted one. Sunglasses are a pain and I've never seen anyone wear them while wearing a helmet.

 

[George Wallace]

Inch

Those visors used to be quite popular with us Tankers, when we had the old AFV helmets.

GW

 

[Inch]

Inch

Those visors used to be quite popular with us Tankers, when we had the old AFV helmets.

GW

They do have a high LCF! I thought you guys would be more in favour of goggles due to the dirt blowing around, I guess it's no different than walking under the windstorm that is rotorwash.

 

[mdh]

Try hand propping a 12 cylinder RR Merlin

Ahhh yes Inch... the sound of a 12 cylinder RR Merlin - now that's enough to make a man blind with sentiment.   Brings to mind one of my first flying experiences as a child in an RCAF Dakota back in the day in Gimli, Man. now a sad and crumbling relic of past glories - if only we could bring back the Dak...

 

[huskot]

According to the Canadian Forces website, all pilots have to have 20/20 vision UNCORRECTED. This is probably a stupid question, since getting laser eye surgery is CORRECTING your vision, but would laser-corrected vision be acceptable?

Thanks for any and all replies!

 

[nULL]

unfortunately, no.

 

[CBH99]

Thats too bad, I'm sure the Canadian Forces lose a lot of good candidates that way.  Very few people still have 20/20 vision at the average age of application for a pilot, especially in the modern world of computer monitors and TV's.  We SHOULD be a bit more accomodating, like the US Armed Forces, who allow their pilots to have had laser-eye surgery.