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The CC-130-J Hercules Merged Thread

CDN Aviator said:
Well, maybe YOU can live with it. But i assure you that overly complicated maintenance arrangements do nothing but hinder operational availability of an aircraft fleet.

If the military was free of political expedients and allowed to operate it's logistics with "best practices" I don't think we would be looking at splitting an aircraft into six maintenance channels. Criticism of the military as being inefficient has been around as long as the interference of politics on military decision making.
 
My opinion only but

1st and 2nd line for the CC-130J should be done by military technicians at the Sqn level with some support at the Wing level. TLIR should be done by the OEM (in This case L-M)
 
depot level maintenance cannot be done by LM alone as they are not experts in the engines they buy, the electronics they use etc.  LM are airframers

six locations actually seems low for a complex new aircraft.

What we need is the ILS report that specifies the Maintenance model, the Spares model, the FEMECA report etc.  Only then can we judge if the deal is good/bad/indifferent
 
CDN Aviator said:
Well, maybe YOU can live with it. But i assure you that overly complicated maintenance arrangements do nothing but hinder operational availability of an aircraft fleet. If you had to do your job in one of thse aircraft, you might not be so willing to live with it.

You are right, I don't have to live with it. Given that, I am looking at the political reality....I would rather see more of this government with a majority continue to increase the equipment of the forces over the long term, than the alternative.
 
The shame is that, if the blog post is accurate, politics have delayed the contract since June 2006:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/08/c-130j-13-months-to-issue-request-for.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
This is how aircraft are maintained folks.  As Haletown mentioned - 6 is not a high number.

Lockheed Martin assembles aircraft in an assembly plant - they don't make engines, sub-systems, avionics suites, etc.

The props will be contracted out to one company, the engines to another, engine sub-systems to another, avionics to another, etc etc - the list goes on (and on).  This is a fact of life - nothing to see here, everybody go about your business.

The Buffalo sends it props and engines out to France and California for 3rd line maintenance.
 
Military cargo planes get Treasury Board approval

By Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA - The Defence Department's long-awaited and controversial purchase of the newest version of the Hercules transport plane has been approved by the federal Treasury Board, defence sources say.

A replacement for the air force's aging C-130E and C-130H fleets was first proposed in the summer of 2006 by former defence minister Gordon O'Connor.

Sources said the $4.6-billion purchase of 17 C-130Js received funding approval last Thursday, but a contract has yet to be signed with U.S. aircraft giant Lockheed Martin.

The in-service support portion of the deal will be the subject of further discussions, said one source familiar with the agreement.

Officials at National Defence declined comment, and it's unclear whether the federal cabinet needs to review the package again.

But in a year-end interview with The Canadian Press last week, Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier said he understood the cargo plane was in the final stages of approval.

Three of the older Hercules have already been retired after exceeding their flying life and "we'd like to put the other ones to bed as quickly as possible," Hillier said.

"With the old C-130s, we're spending more to keep them flying but their operational availability is going down."

He compared the existing fleet to a 1981 Ford Taurus that is constantly in the shop for repairs.

"You spend a thousand bucks to keep it running, take it back out and something else breaks and you put it back in," he said.

"I know this because I had a Ford Taurus."

Defence sources said the government was running out of time to make up its mind because Lockheed Martin's price for the project was set to expire at the end of the year.

Often described as the workhorse of the air force, Hercules transports have flown tens of thousands of soldiers into and out of Kandahar during the last two years. The cargo plane is also a principal resupply lifeline, dropping containers of ammunition, food and medical supplies to NATO combat units throughout southern Afghanistan.

The Defence Department refused to explain why in-service support for the C-130Js has been left open for discussion, but it is clear a storm is brewing among Canadian defence contractors, who increasingly feel left out.

As military aircraft become more sophisticated and fewer are being purchased, many Canadian aerospace firms have downsized and discontinued separate production lines. Instead they now rely on the Defence Department to buy maintenance data, such as technical drawings, up front from the aircraft-maker, most of which are foreign-owned.

The system has had problems, notably the purchase of the CH-149 Cormorant helicopter from AgustaWestland. Federal bureaucrats negotiated technology licences on a piece-by-piece basis, resulting in a part and maintenance nightmare for Halifax-based IMP Aerospace, which has the support contract.

Since the Conservatives announced sole-source deals with both Lockheed Martin and Boeing, there has been a change in practice. The government intends to contract in-service support directly with the aircraft-maker, but require them to spend money in Canada on industrial offsets - something that will generate work, but not to the same degree as the old system.

The Public Works Department has been working feverishly to persuade the skeptical aerospace industry of the merits of the new approach, but companies have demanded to see the terms in writing.

The purchase of new C-130s has also prompted a repeated storm of criticism over the way it was handled and the choice of aircraft itself.

The Conservative government decided early in its tenure that it was going to deal exclusively with Lockheed Martin for the air force's medium-lift transport planes.

Rival European aircraft-maker Airbus Military complained publicly and took the unusual step of putting its case before the House of Commons defence committee, saying its yet-to-be-tested cargo jet was being unfairly excluded from competition.

Concerns about the sole-sourcing arrangement were also fodder for opposition parties during question period.

Critics also pointed to a variety of teething pains, including problems with the cockpit glass, radar glitches and props that have been easily damaged by what's considered ordinary wear and tear.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/12/19/4732582-cp.html
 
  Hopefully now the military can finally get these planes built and delivered without any more delays .
I am a firm believer that if the military needs a piece of kit let them have it there shouldn't be an endless debate about it . 
 
More of the same regarding A400M (subscriber only):
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/channel_.jsp?channel=awst

News Breaks
Europe
Another Delay
Aviation Week & Space Technology
12/24/2007, page 12

The first flight of the A400M’s TP400 engine has slipped further, to the second quarter of 2008 from the first. Following delivery of an engine to Marshall Aerospace for integration on the C-130 testbed and a review of the program schedule, the Turboprop International consortium developing the massive engine announced the change.

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
More of the same regarding A400M (subscriber only):
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/channel_.jsp?channel=awst

Mark
Ottawa

Wow...at this rate, the A400M will get of the ground only after the Space Shuttle's replacement hits the skies (and beyond).  Good thing those united Europeans were too proud to have Pratt and Whitney Canada uses their decades of turbo-prop experience to help these guys out of a bind...  ::)

Oy! 

G2G
 
at this rate, we can consider the A400 as a replacement for our C130Js ;)
 
geo: Maybe :o:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080105/bs_afp/germanyfranceaerospacecompanyeads

Sat Jan 5, 9:39 AM ET

BERLIN (AFP) - The European aerospace giant EADS is facing new problems with its A400M military transport plane which could delay its maiden flight expected in July, a Germany weekly reported.

"There are still loads of unanswered questions," a senior EADS executive told the Wirtschaftswoche weekly in its edition to be published Monday.

The problems do not only concern the plane's engines but also the fuselage and the wings [emphasis added], the executive said.

The A400M, the most important military industrial programme ever carried out between European partners, was launched by seven countries in May 2003, but it is already six months to one year behind schedule due to technical problems.

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company said in November that it was going to have spend between 1.2-1.4 billion euros (1.8-2.0 billion dollars) to deal with the delays.

The A400M aircraft is Europe's response to the ageing C-130 Hercules transporter, produced by the US firm Lockheed. EADS has said it will have greater airlift capacity and range than both the Hercules and the Transall, another ageing but widely used military transport plane.

If the engine first flies (on a C-130 testbed) in the second quarter of this year I sure wouldn't want to be on an A400M making its first flight in July!  I'm willing to bet early next year at the earliest, if that isn't too early, if you know what I mean.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Well for the Transall it took around 10 years between start of the development and delivery of the first final plane.
For the A400M we are just a bit in the 5 year.

Regards,
ironduke57
 
So another delay.  When will the delays end?? 

Engine problems continue, now airframe issues.  At what cost ??

In November  2007 EADS announced:

"A400M delivery delays to cost EADS up to €1.4 billion
By Craig Hoyle

EADS will confirm, on 8 November, the full scale of an up to €1.4 billion ($2.0 billion) charge linked to the development and flight-test delays that have affected its delivery schedule for the nine-nation Airbus Military A400M transport.

At best, the penalty for the third quarter of 2007 will be €1.2 billion, it says, with Airbus to carry over €1 billion of this total.

"This estimate is the best that can be established at this point of the programme development, and is consistent with the delays of six months - with a risk of a further slippage of up to a half year - that were announced on 17 October," EADS says."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/11/05/219133/a400m-delivery-delays-to-cost-eads-up-to-1.4-billion.html


So what is the cost overrun now ??

Thank goodness we did not buy these things.  Despite the concerted effort by some MSM journalists to push for them, the government made the correct decision in getting a mixed fleet of 17's 130J's.






 
"Sat Jan 5, 9:39 AM ET
hmmmmm  "loads of unanswered questions"

Sounds like a low risk solution to CG airlift needs.

Too bad we bought the C17 instead  ;D



BERLIN (AFP) - The European aerospace giant EADS is facing new problems with its A400M military transport plane which could delay its maiden flight expected in July, a Germany weekly reported.
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"There are still loads of unanswered questions," a senior EADS executive told the Wirtschaftswoche weekly in its edition to be published Monday."

rtr @  http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080105/bs_afp/germanyfranceaerospacecompanyeads_080105143900;_ylt=Aj3w4KXOejMBYaMEr09bn5CmOrgF



 
You know what the funny thing is?  The same people who are complaining because the A400M isn't given consideration would be the first to criticize the government and DND for wasting money if it were selected and the CF were left waiting for years for an undelivered plane
 
About, I must say, freaking time:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/01/15/pf-4774816.html

The air force's $4.6-billion purchase of the newest version of the Hercules transport plane will be made final Wednesday, after months of delays, wrangling and hand-wringing among defence contractors, defence sources said.

More than a year ago, the Conservative government invoked a national security clause in procurement legislation and negotiated exclusively with U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin to buy 17 C-130J transport planes.
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/08/c-130j-13-months-to-issue-request-for.html

Replacement of the air force's aging C-130E and C-130H fleets was part of a massive rearmament drive launched by former defence minister Gordon O'Connor in 2006 [well, the Liberals had actually decided for all practical purposes to buy the Jerc in November 2005--link at post no longer up].
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/005272.html

Defence and industry sources say the contract to buy the aircraft was approved by the federal cabinet last month, just before the aircraft-maker's pricing schedule expired.

The program has been held up over concern about the 20-year, $1.7-billion maintenance portion of the contract.

In addition to building the planes, Lockheed, as prime contractor, would also be responsible for the maintenance contract - something that has upset Canadian defence contractors.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay and Public Works Minister Michael Fortier will announce the purchase Wednesday at a high-profile event at the Ottawa airport, but they will give themselves up to 12 months to negotiate the support deal, said defence insiders.

A senior government official said Public Works has been demanding that 75 per cent of the long-term maintenance work be carried out by Canadian defence contractors. The other 25 per cent can be done by U.S. firms.

"We've negotiated very firmly," said the source.

If Public Works is able to achieve the three-quarters Canadian-based maintenance levels, it will amount to "hundreds of millions of dollars for Canadian companies."

Delivery of the first aircraft is expected within 36 months...

Mark
Ottawa
 
So... the planes start arriving when?
Last airframe in our hands by which date?
 
geo said:
So... the planes start arriving when?
Last airframe in our hands by which date?

Exactly! What these bureaucrats seem to forget is that we have aging airframes that we are nursing along to keep the missions going at the moment. We need these planes ten years ago and we need to start seeing if we can do something similar to what we did to get the C17s.....see if we can jump the que!
 
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