The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[Colin Parkinson]

I-6
Didn’t they hold patents and processes that were not available to Colt, beside the FN stuff? The heavy barrels and methodology of manufacture was quite different than colt had if I remember one of your comments long ago?

 

[KevinB]

The Canadian gov't owns the barrel machines...  The heavy barrel are not unique -- in fact nothing is unique -- KAC, FN and Wilcox have the same barrel machines in the US (and I think two others but no proof) -

 Canada will NOT (they better not) allow all our Small Arms capability to leave.   i wonder what will happen when the next SARP comes up -- I think Canada ROYAL f'd up byt the number - and when Devtech-Heroux wanted to spin Diemaco off -- they should have made it a crown corp.

   Colt Canada has a lot of talent -- even some of it beign misguided -- but it is criminal to allow us to lose control.

What happens when the next SARP winner is not a Colt creation (the M5, LE1020 piston guns not looking healthy to me) -- but a FN, HK or Magpul etc desgin?
  Who builds it in Canada then????????????

 

[geo]

I'm with you on this Kev... I'm just not convinced that the Cdn Gov't has the longterm vision to prevent Colt from folding up the tent and changing addresses.  What incremental business is there at Colt Canada that Colt USA can't provide?  Now that all FN licences are nul and void, not much keeping them here IMHO.

The same way as we have flushed our Maritime architectual design & engineering capabilities over the years - forcing Cdn born & grown talent to do something else OR go elsewhere to practice their trade.

 

[KevinB]

Colt currently is at max production -- a lot of their weapons sold in the US are made in Canada.

  Even if they packed up they dont own the bbl machines -- so either the Cdn gov't could rebuild Canadian Arsenals/Dominion Arsenals (my prefered choice) or another manufacturer could come in and setup shop.
  I am truly worried that DRL 5-5 will skew the Colt SARP enterants and justify it with ease of entrance to the market.
Hk teamed with Wilcox Industrues to get their Hk416's made "on shore" - given the relatively small Cdn market (80,000 mil weapons roughly say ) I dont know if it is worth it for anyone (HK or FN) to move in.  And given US technological issues with US firms (the End User issues for Diemaco/Colt Canada) even on weapons made in Canada - it would not likley worth it for another firm to move up.

  The question is whether or not the Foreign sales (Canada, Europe) for Colt that Colt Canada handles are worth it in the long run after the current contracts expire.
Regardless of my American loyalties -I dont think it smart for any country to allow themselves to be utterly dependant upon another ( - even a good friend) for weapons.  Canada is already in a headlock for a lot of high end mil kit (night vision, ir lasers and suppressors) best not allow the basic tool of the soldier to be controlled as well.

I think the CF, DND and the Cdn Gov't dropped the ball on this one.

I would never adopt the Hk system w/o full Canadian production and control of distribution inside the cdn border -as you never know when the German gov't may pull the plug to try to control military options, same goes for FN/Belgian issues.

   

 

[DirtyDog]

No matter how much sense it makes, or how it was sold, I could see the goverment of Canada getting into the small arms game as a bad headline ill recieved, for what ever retarded reasons, by the public in this country.  Maybe I'm just pessimistic. 

 

[TCBF]

Sir Charles Ross, where are you when we need you?

;D

 

[geo]

Then again, you get a crown corporation that produces something like the SA80 and the Army seems forced to make use of it.......

Well - except for their SF who came a knocking on Diemaco's door.

 

[Tuukka]

The future...

Kev, whats up with the 5.56 mm only ? 

 

[KevinB]

Bugger - I should have guessed you'd show up here and upstage me.

From what I've seen of the 417 it will be the DM standard... (I say with a heavy heart on my KAC goodies)

but I see your still stuck with the cheezy HK flip up off the gasblock -- not good with the ported blocks on the longer than 10.5 guns - and the 10.5 really should have a robust front sight anyway.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

You two should get a room already.

 

[DirtyDog]

From what I've seen of the 417 it will be the DM standard... (I say with a heavy heart on my KAC goodies)

So better then an m110?

 

[KevinB]

No 7.62mm gas guns do well in the amounts of rounds that seem to be getting asked of them these days.

  I love the M110 and Mk11 series rifles don't get me wrong -- but a 16" and 12" Hk417 work way better longer, and even in the 20" gun catagory the addition of a can to the Mk11 will make it choke quicker than the 417.
   The early 417's I saw where not quite a Mk11 in accuracy - but I've been told they have fixed that.

Its a young system - and by the time the next SARP program is looking for candidates I think the 416/7 guns will do well -- especially since everyone (other than MG34 and I apprently) seems to think everyone needs a piston.

The Mk16/7 SCAR-L/H rifles have a leg up - but the commonality of the lower from the C7A2 and C8 could make it a easy swap for Canada.

Depends on how much life the lowers have left in them.

 

[blacktriangle]

I6,

How much would it cost per soldier for the regs to get weapons decked out like that? I know it wont' happen, but care to ballpark?

 

[KevinB]

Mil/LE cost is around 1100 for the upper from Hk complete with 1x worthless "High Reliabilty" extra weight mag and the fixed sights (either 14.5 or 10.5). Manual, and buffer and spring (the standard issued H2 buffer spring dont work well with the Hk's)

S&B Mil/LE pricing in somewhere in the neightbourhood of $1600 for the ShortDot
Aimpoint pricing for the M3 on the 10.5 is around $300 (Mil pricing)
Mounts - not sure I got them free - I have no idea what the cost is to mil versus the base line retail

NVEC Atilla-200 - I would guess the benchmark is close to the Insight PEQ-2A and near $1000.

Besides who say the reg army does not get blinged out guns...

 

[blacktriangle]

Mil/LE cost is around 1100 for the upper from Hk complete with 1x worthless "High Reliabilty" extra weight mag and the fixed sights (either 14.5 or 10.5). Manual, and buffer and spring (the standard issued H2 buffer spring dont work well with the Hk's)

S&B Mil/LE pricing in somewhere in the neightbourhood of $1600 for the ShortDot
Aimpoint pricing for the M3 on the 10.5 is around $300 (Mil pricing)
Mounts - not sure I got them free - I have no idea what the cost is to mil versus the base line retail

NVEC Atilla-200 - I would guess the benchmark is close to the Insight PEQ-2A and near $1000.

Besides who say the reg army does not get blinged out guns...

Point taken, and thanks for the info. Anyone want to bet what year the C7/C8 will be replaced, lol.

 

[DirtyDog]

S&B Mil/LE pricing in somewhere in the neightbourhood of $1600 for the ShortDot

How does one go about getting a Mil/Le discount like that (huge) for a short dot?  Or are you talking on like a unit purchase?

 

[KevinB]

That would be unit purchase.  S&B USA does a MIL/LEO individual purchase -- Wolverine Supplies is the Cdn Dist and as far as I am aware he does not...

 

[Tuukka]

Bugger - I should have guessed you'd show up here and upstage me.

From what I've seen of the 417 it will be the DM standard... (I say with a heavy heart on my KAC goodies)

but I see your still stuck with the cheezy HK flip up off the gasblock -- not good with the ported blocks on the longer than 10.5 guns - and the 10.5 really should have a robust front sight anyway.

Yep, those sights were on when they arrived. I will also have to change the grips to Ergo grips or something similar.

The 417 is very shootable and with the can on, the perceived recoil was cut to approximately half. On Monday I did shoot a few groups before the darkness set in and we started to test some flash suppression issues with several weapons, but it was pretty dark even by then. I will go out later this week and take some Lapua Scenar ammo also to test, but obviously the 12" upper isnt really a target type upper.

My personal guess also is that barring any long term issues with the 417, it will gather good popularity among end users, several European countries have already tested it and will adopt it into use.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Soldier of Misfortune....you are treading on dangerous ground, you are trying to spar with personnel that have used this weapon in combat. You are so far out of your lane I guarantee you will not know what hits you when some of the more vocal members read "your opinion". Do yourself a favour and duck now and read more, post less on subjects you have never personally experienced and you might learn something. You can learn a lot from these folks if you realize damn quick that you won't be taken serious.

Believe me, think I am blunt? It will only get worse....

 

[dapaterson]

Interesting article at Defence Industry Daily re: the US Army's purchase of more M4s.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

The M4 placed last in reliability, with 1 jam every 68 rounds.  The H&K 416, a gas-piston upper receiver group that can be added on to an M4, was in 3rd place, with a rate of 1 jam in 257 rounds.

When asked about the difference in reliability of the weapons, a US Army spokesman said that it was "A mathematically statistically significant difference, but not an operationally statistical difference."

Thoughts?