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The Agent Orange and Its Repercussions Thread

Hello Everyone

Today, May 31, I contacted Veterans Affairs and told them of my father's exposure to Agent Orange . Dad was in the 2nd Btln Black Watch and was posted at CFB Gagetown from 1959 to 1962 and then again from 1965 until the Black Watch was disbanded. Dad had a lot of experience with being on exercises in the training area. So, he was one of the exposed.

To their credit, the Veterans Affairs people are taking this very seriously and are mailing out forms to be filled out. The main criteria is to prove that the Black Watch was in CFB Gagetown at the time of the defoliation. Well, that is not hard to prove. The other aspect is the doctor's forms saying that he died of a rare cancer. They are willing to provide a compensation pension to my mother even though he died six years ago. It will not be retroactive.

The only catch is that it was explained to me that the maximum that the DVA pays for all disabilities is $1,540 a month. So, if anyone has previous disabilities that are equal to the that sum or more, then there would be no additional payment for compensation for being poisoned by our own government. When I put to the pension officer today in that way, she reacted by saying that my analysis was in fact correct, but there were limits imposed by legislation on the amounts. I said to her again that if a veteran who had disabilities which paid the exisiting maximum then there was in fact no compensation for being poisoned and killed by our own government's secret spraying.

She said that I should write to the minister and put it to her like that and request a review of the cap on the disability amounts because I was correct, it you receive the maximum, there won't be additional compensation for being poisoned by Agent Orange.

However, I did not stop there.

I telephoned the Department of National Defense and went through much the same thing there.

Then I got really steamed and I called the CBC....well, I have to say that the CBC did not much care to hear about this initiallly. But I am not one who EVER gives up and I was rudely treated by the reporter at the Assignment desk and he told me that he did not have the time to listen to me but to send him and email. Well, that was one reporter who has missed out on a BIG story.

I continued and looked up investigative journalists in Canada on the Internet and concentrated on the CBC personalities, again I drew a blank. I called another part of the CBC and the staffer on the public affairs line HAD NOT EVEN HEARD OF THE DECISION TO COMPENSATE VETERANS. I couldn't believe this. I asked how long he had been working for the CBC and told him that he better start watching his own broadcasts. He was not impressed, but neither was I and I told him so.

Next I called my MP's office and related my story to the secretary who told me to put it all in writing and it would be looked at by my MP when he had the time.

Each person who turned me down just exacerbated my DETERMINATION to get to someone who would listen.

Finally, a resonsponive and very disbelieving reporter told me to call the CBC Parliamentary Bureau Chief for the CBC and gave me his private number on the hill. I was assured that I would get a voice mail and I might hear back in a week or two...and in my experience with dealing with any person in government agency that meant never.

However, much to my surprise I actually contacted the Bureau Chief, David Taylor and not only did he listen to me, he delayed a meeting he had to ask details and said to me that this story needs to be told and he commended me for coming forward with it. He is sending an investigative team to interview me and then they will take it from there with questions directed to the various officials in the various departments.

You see, not only my Dad was exposed to Agent Orange in Gagetown. But so was I, I worked there as a summer student in late July and August 1966, clearing the defoliated brush. We worked with bare hands, inhaling the fumes that were still prevalent on the dead brush. We had to burn it which was even worse, because we also inhaled the smoke. And by direct contact we absorbed through our skin. And when it came time for a break or lunch, we just sat down where we were working and ate our food with our bare hands that were covered in Dioxin.

There were approximately, 300 of us students hired to do this.

That is why this story is so unique as the Bureau Chief said to me. Because I am seriously ill with neurological deficiencies in my brain (my frontal lobes are 30% atrophied and I take anti-seizure medication for that) In 1977, my liver literally blew up to twice it's size and I was diagnosed by two prominent liver specialists (hepatologists) and had three liver biopsies done. They concluded in 1977 that I was suffering from "Toxic Hepatitis" caused by an extremely toxic chemical. I was sick for four years, felt like I had a mild case of the flu. Then in 1981, I started having all sorts of medical problems, stomach ailments, acne, seizures, and these went untilĀ  1990 when I started having blackouts and I was put on CPP and have been on CPP since then. My blackouts advanced to memory problems, brain dysfunctions, and a host of problems that would make my medicare bill equal to a small city's. In 1998, I had my first attack of pancreatitis and then another and another and so. I also developed Type II Diabetes, then micronodular cirrohsis of the liver even though I have never drank alcohol. I have been in the hospital 16 times, six times last year and so far this year once in April.

My doctors tell me that my exposure to Agent Orange is responsible for all this. They also tell me that my liver profile tells them that it is not a question of "if" I develop liver cancer it is a question of "when". Currenly I go for an AFP test every three months (Alpha Feta Protein) it is a test to determine if the proteins in my blood are abnormal and if they are, that means the cancer has started.

I told all this to the Parliamentary Bureau Chief and he was astonished because not only myself is sick, there must be dozen or hundreds of us former teenagers in 1966 who are sick, dying or have already died. So from a perspective of being a good news story....Father and Son exposed to Agent Orange and dying from it... I don't mind because the story needs to get out to educcate our young to what our government did not only to the serving members of any regiment that spent time in the training area of CFB Gagetown but also to the teenagers who are my age now...and who may not know why they are dying of various forms of cancer, liver disorders, neurological anomolies, and a host of other diseases that are listed on the American Veterans Websites. But it is also the undiscovered diseases of what this most deadly Dioxin will cause in future years because it also alters your DNA and then you pass it along to your children.

If anyone out there was a worker with me in 1966 clearing the brush in the training area. Please post yourself and get ahold of the press and let them know.

And finally, I would advise ANY person who spent any amount of time in the bush in CFB Gagetown to get yourself checked out for cancer. Get an AFP blood test done regularly and demand compensation form the government.

I have a feeling that this is just the beginning of my odyssey.

Nuf said....take care all...and you can reach me at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca

 
In 1967 to 1969 I was in the field with my regiment, the 2nd Battalion of The Royal Highland Regiment of Canada, The Black Watch.

I and thousands of others were exposed to Agent Orange which was sprayed in over 100 areas of Gagetown.

The Federal Government concealed the facts from us until the spring of this year.

I saw the Royal Canadian Mounted Police this morning and laid out the information as I knew it. I asked that the following charges be laid against the Minister of National Defence and the Chief of the Defence Staff:

Criminal Negligence,
Criminal Negligence Causing Death and
Murder

The Policeman, Cpl. Stan Williams of the Hamilton, Ontario office said that he would have to check on Jurisdictional matters and would get back to me.

He was also somewhat concerned about the possibility of charging such powerful people.

The story that was in the newspaper appears below.

If you would like to help me in this battle you can send funds to:

John S. Walker
P.O. Box 57247, Jackson Stn.
Hamilton, Ontario
L8P 4X1
jwalker@hwcn.org

_____________________________________________________________________________


Is Agent Orange killing Canadian veterans?

John Walker, shown in a 1965 photo, blames his diabetes on exposure to
Agent Orange while he was stationed in Gagetown with the Black Watch regiment.

By Bill Dunphy
The Hamilton Spectator(Jun 7, 2005)

John Walker leafs through his yellowing photo album, flip- ping page after
page, pointing to the black-and-white photos of the young soldiers, beaming
with good health and vigour.

"These guys -- they were all exposed to it. They are all infected, but do
they know that?"

Infection may be the wrong word. But exposed isn't.

Walker is talking about being exposed to Agent Orange, the notorious toxic
defoliant sprayed on Vietnamese jungles in mind-numbing quantities by the
Americans during their war. Agent Orange created a horrific legacy of
disease, cancers, and miscarriages, which scars that country's people to
this day.

So toxic was Agent Orange that tens of thousands of Americans have fallen
gravely ill or died as a result of exposure to the chemical during the war.

What few Canadians realize is that Agent Orange was used and tested here in
Canada at the Armed Forces Gagetown base in New Brunswick and that
hundreds, if not thousands, of Canadian soldiers and support staff were
exposed to it.

Many may be sick, dying or dead as a result.

Walker fears he too has fallen ill -- with adult onset diabetes -- because
of his years at Gagetown, where he served as a private in the 2nd Battalion
of the Black Watch Regiment.

"I remember one time in 1967 we were training and had pulled into a copse
of trees for the night, a section of forest maybe one mile thick by two or
three miles long.

"There were no leaves on the trees, no grass on the ground. It was all just
dead.

"You pull in, you're digging slit trenches -- six feet deep, two feet wide
-- you're covered in this (crap) and you're sleeping in it. And then you
bring it all home and your wife washes your clothes ..."

His voice trails off. He's lost touch with his ex-wife and their two
daughters, but he wonders if they too may have been affected.

Walker comes from a Dundas military family and back in 1965, still in his
teens, he signed on with the Black Watch. Over the next four years he would
spend about 21 months or so stationed at Gagetown, where in 1966 Canadian
authorities invited Americans to test Agent Orange on swaths of the base's
hardwood forest and scrub brush.

Although the tests were no secret at the time, they weren't acknowledged by
the armed forces until the early '80s and then it was only to reassure the
public that there had been no ecological harm done.

Until very recently, they insisted there were no health problems associated
with the spraying and rejected all requests for compensation from sick --
and in some cases dying -- veterans.

It's important to note that establishing direct causal links between
environmental toxins and cancers or diseases that turn up decades later in
specific individuals is very tricky science. But in the U.S. authorities
became so convinced about the overall association between Agent Orange
exposure and a list of 11 or so cancers and diseases, that they have for
years extended disability pensions to any soldier who had those diseases
and might have been exposed to the chemical.

Canada is years behind that standard.

But after decades of denial, late last year they quietly approved two
disability pensions related to Agent Orange exposure, one from exposure in
Vietnam (during peacekeeping duties) and one at Gagetown.

The story only leaked out last month.

And now, like a slowly burning fuse connecting a long string of
firecrackers, it's blowing up in community after community across the
country as word gets out.

Walker was stunned when he saw the press coverage and realized it may
explain his health problems, his now barely controlled diabetes and the
associated neuropathy in his legs.

Discovering that it could have been caused by a callous exposure during his
service to his country hit him hard.

"It's like the stages of grief. The first week I couldn't even talk about
it, this week I'm angry -- God knows what I'll be like next week."

He's applied for a disability pension and been told he'll get an answer
within four to six months.

He says he hasn't been able to work since December and is down to his last
$700 of his savings. He wonders how many cases like him are out there.

"How many thousands of soldiers were stationed there during those years?"
Walker asks. And how many have fallen prey to diseases linked to, or
associated with, exposure to Agent Orange?

The short answer is, no one knows.

Janice Sommerby, of Veterans Affairs, said yesterday that in the previous
five years since her department began tracking disability pension requests
linked to Agent Orange exposure, 25 people have applied. (Twenty-three have
been turned down.) In the four weeks since the story broke, they've had 200
calls inquiring about disability pensions linked to Agent Orange.

Are Walker's illnesses caused by Agent Orange? Does he deserve a disability
pension?

I don't have a clue.

But I know he and many, many other of our vets deserve much better
treatment than they're getting so far.

bdunphy@thespec.com 905-526-3262

-------------------------------------------------------

 
I am getting the uneasy feeling (as a residend of Gagetown) that this whole issue is getting blown way out of proportion. Gagetown was only a test site, given that some soldiers no doubt ended up patroling driving or walking through these areas a possible link to illness could result. But come on a CO of a BN in the 60s call me crazy but what CO do you remeber ever being out in the bush with the troops crawling through the brush. The tests would be washed away after the first rain and dont forget the high rate of cancer in CF members anyway (not from orange) and the added issue of smkers and esatern Candians having high rates, roll it all up and most military will get it. My Uncle died of what is belived to be exposure to Agent Orange when he was in VN. He was physically sprayed with the stuff on more than one occasion and patrolled through many areas of the defoliant. He died several years after VN of an unusal brain tumor, all the info I got and was aware of as we tried to claim compensation for his widow showed me that Canadas exposure is vertually nil. Not that some odd soldiers may have gotten enough of a does to casue effects but please, COs soccer games 50 KMs from the spray.
If by some unusal turn of events a soldier was sprayed and heavily exposed then the best route to get info is the NB power investigation and compensation into its employess who sprayed Agent Orange routinely along power transmission lines through out NB throughout the 60s.
Furthermore dont take for gospel what DVA accepts as a claim makes the claim valid. They now will side with a person if it is in the interest of the service (optics) and proof is not difinitive they will give the benifit of the doubt, that does not mean its a valid claim just that they will pay.
As a side note the locals in gagetown are all a buzz about how much they can claim.
For what its worth.
 
rocky1fac said:
Furthermore dont take for gospel what DVA accepts as a claim makes the claim valid. They now will side with a person if it is in the interest of the service (optics) and proof is not difinitive they will give the benifit of the doubt, that does not mean its a valid claim just that they will pay.

I don't know what world you live in, but many of us here have put legitimate claims in to DVA and been turned down. Ā  Armour pers are well documented in several categories of injuries that are all job related and many of us have had our claims rejected. Ā  Twenty odd years of bouncing around on tracked vehicles and having the end result of compressed disks means nothing to DVA Claims Adjusters. Ā  Twenty odd years of firing Tank and Heavy Machine Guns and listening to radios on a headset has little long term effect on Crewmen's hearing according to those clerical gurus in Charlottetown, even though their own studies have verified the different Trades and injuries they're bound to suffer. Ā  (By the way, according to their studies, Cooks top the list for hearing loss related their work.) Ā  If you are saying that DVA will settle a erroneous claim to keep someone quiet or from leaking to the Press, then why do they litterally screw over legitimate claimants?
 
He's saying this cause he's a poser, George.
End game, sunshine.
 
Poser? No just the facts sunshine just the facts!
As a current suffer of depleted uranium poisoning and being in a position a a point in my life to know about the issue of agent O, I would hardly call myself a poser. My post was to add a little help the NB power part and to detail a potential abuse of the system by all the potential Agent O posers.....
And such a comment by directing staff Im surprised. As a matter of interest last night at the bar I ran into an old chum who talked about this exact issue and was going to run out and get some papers to apply for a claim with no syntoms and no exposure just was thier. Proof in the making.
Sorry if the truth hurts.Ā 
 
I don't think you won over too many people rocky with your post on how you felt those an Tarnac Farms being awared the Wound Stripe somehow diminishes the award and were undeserving.
 
I thought this thread was about agent O? Wound strip issue was another thread but yes I would agree on some level the comment on wound strip was probably not well recieved. Not withstanding that the wound strip is for wounds in combat not from friendly fire accidents no matter how tragic. The wound strip issue should be continued on the other thread not here.
 
Quote rocky1facĀ  Ā  "Furthermore dont take for gospel what DVA accepts as a claim makes the claim valid. They now will side with a person if it is in the interest of the service (optics) and proof is not difinitive they will give the benifit of the doubt, that does not mean its a valid claim just that they will pay."

I for one can definitely say the above quote is not true... DVA is there to do a job and they might not like doing it, but all claims have to be verified... Why else have we been trying to find the proper info for so long? Why else would I sit here since May21 waiting for my husbands body and the info to be released?... I WILL because I want to know for sure if his claim is factual and DVA also needs that info. This claim was submitted long before any Media got involved and yes... DVA could have suspected that we might go to the public via media, but they still have a mandate that they follow. I can agree that many might tie up the process with claims that can never be verified and that is a shame for those that will have to wait longer for paperwork to clear off desks. Since no sh*t hit the media fan until lately, then I have to wonder why it is reported that 17 of the early 20 claims about AO were not given the benefit of the doubt?Ā 

Please take care when making firm statements, many of us already KNOW what DVA requires and many of us could be very hurt by such statements made with thought...

up-date;Ā  pathology is still doing their testing and some tests take longer than others... I do believe that this is the first AO autopsy that has been done in Canada so I am sure they are doing their best to get all the info in the proper way and I thought this might be a good time to post. Thank you all for your interest...
 
What can I say? Sorry for your lose but I stand by what I said.

It has always been a policy of DVA to side with a claim when not proven or disproven but given the benfit of the doubt to the claimant.

I never said that all AO claims were not valid I just stated my concern for the soon to come onslought of claims from people who were present at CFB Gagetown when the test spray occured. I would expect that some claims would be valid but I think its a stretch to tie a soccer game to the issue otherwise the entire population of Gagetown and area 15,000 (est) would have signs of it. Thats the issue.

With an Uncle dead of AO and myself a holder of 5 different DVA claims I have a small concept of the issue at DVA and AO. And by the way no help from DVA for depleted urainium poisoning but I await the benifit of the doubt.

In closing the most important point I made for you was the NB Power study and compensation over AO but that appears to have been forgotten. As a recap NB Power and CN rail used the AO to clear track and power lines throughout the country and NB. NB power did up a study and compensated at last knowledge those that were victims. I hope this helpsĀ  Ā 
 
Man, rocky, is there anything you HAVEN'T done or been involved in?

Acorn
 
Hold on to your helmets Agent Purple is now the buzz word at CFB Gagetown.
Agent Purple was sprayed at CFB Gagetown in the 50s. Agent Purple is claimed to be 3 times more toxic then Agent Orange.
Im informed so your informed ...new forum maybe this one should be 3 times more crowded.
 
http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=642ed469-7346-4f1a-bc5e-21ebed477624

FREDERICTON -- A herbicide considered three times more toxic than the cancer-linked Agent Orange was sprayed on a New Brunswick army base in 1966, CBC Radio reported Monday.

The government has only acknowledged the harm caused by spraying Agent Orange in 1966 and 1967 at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown. The Canadian military is paying compensation in two cases connected to that spraying.

But according to a U.S. army report, the lesser known but more deadly cousin of Agent Orange known as Agent Purple was also sprayed at the base.

Richard van der Jagt, a leukemia specialist at theOttawa General Hospital, said a study published in the journal Nature estimates that Agent Purple contained three times the cancer-causing material found in Agent Orange.

"Purple is even more laced with dioxin. Dioxin is something we know to be cancer-causing,'' he said.

"These are very toxic agents to human health, something to be very concerned about in public health.''

U.S. forces sprayed Agent Orange to defoliate large areas of forest in Vietnam from 1961 to 1971. Use of the herbicide was stopped in 1971 after it was discovered to contain dioxin.

The Canadian military used the spray to clear foliage to prevent fires during artillery training and to clear the view for soldiers.

The federal government also allowed Americans to test the herbicide at the Canadian base during the Vietnam war.

CBC News also reported that before Agent Orange was tested at Gagetown, the most dangerous ingredient of the herbicide was used as early as 1956 at the base.

A military briefing note to the New Brunswick cabinet shows the ingredient 2,4,5-T was sprayed on thousands of hectares.

"Agent Orange and 2,4,5-T have been banned because of their known toxic effects and they've been banned for many years,'' said van der Jagt.

Earl Graves, who served in the Black Watch Regiment in the 1960s, said he didn't know the base was spraying Agent Purple or Agent Orange.

The retired sergeant, who is now president of the regiment's New Brunswick chapter, said the soldiers were told to cover their heads when the planes flew by.

"They were out in the exercise area and the planes flew over spraying and they were told to just put ponchos over their head, that it wouldn't hurt them,'' Graves said.

"A lot of us were out in the field. We did exercise, we were on the ground - especially the infantry - laying on the ground, eating the blueberries, drinking the water, swimming in the lakes, you name it.''

Graves said 170 soldiers in his regiment died of cancer and many of them died young.

 
Last evening on the CBC news, I watched with extreme interest, a news story on Agent Orange and Agent Purple.Ā  To most of you who are unaware of this, not just Agent Orange was sprayed over CFB Gagetown but a much deadlier toxic chemical, Agent Purple, was sprayed as well.Ā  The US military had stopped using this agent two years prior the spraying at CFB Gagetown.

My father was stationed in "Gagetown" for most of his entire military career.Ā  As a young child growing upĀ  in the PMQ, I can remember certain incidences around the time the spraying took place.Ā  One day our lawn was green, the next it was dead.Ā  At school, the entire school population was sent to the school gym to be innoculated for what we were told was for the spraying of spruce budworm.Ā 

After growing up and moving to another part of the country, I stayed in contact with many of my childhood friends.Ā  In 1991, we decided to get together for a reunion of sorts to catch up on old times.Ā  After the preliminary chit chat, we talked about our children.Ā  Four out of five of us miscarried our first child.Ā  Our second child born had been born with a birth defect(s).Ā  This seemed to all of us too coincidental and so we decided to ask questions.Ā  It is not rare that some children are born with birth defects but what is frightening is that the ratio of this happening within our group is what made us question what we were exposed to when we were young.Ā  We contacted various military personnel to have our concerns answered but were dismissed.Ā  We did not pursue the issue at that time.

What I would like to know is how these chemicals affected the children who were exposed because it seems obvious that we were exposed to these toxic chemicals and no one is willing to acknowledge this.Ā  How many others who as children were exposed and now share similar experiences regarding their offspring?

Agent Orange and Agent Purple were sprayed in CFB Gagetown in the late sixties.Ā  The true horror of this is that it is still there.Ā  Not just the human population had been exposed, but the entire ecosystem had been exposed.

gagetown army brat






 
If some of those affected were gay, then it would still be terrible.
 
Hi Everyone...

I just wanted to comment on a post I saw about Agent Orange being washed away.

The Dioxin that is a by product of the two chemicals that make up Agent Orange or Agent Purple has a half life of nine years. That means that it loses halif it's toxicity every nine years. It does not get washed away. It remains in the soil and the groundwater and will be at CFB Gagetown for some years yet to come.

And as we all know now, CFB Gagetown was not just a test. The place was deliberately defoliated by DND and the US military from 1956 to 1967.

The exposure to Dioxin affects people differently. Some get various forms of cancer, others heart ailments, others respiratory diseases and others have nerve damage and yet others will get blood disorders. The bottom line is that no one knows how it will affect a person, or even if it affects everyone. There is simply not enough science available yet

Those of us who have been poisoned by Dioxin are still waiting for the next thing to go wrong with our bodies, there are diseases and disorders that are still being added to the growing list of medical problems.

Four months after I had my exposure by working with the defoliated brush for six weeks, I developed peptic ulcers...imagine that, I was only 19. I have been sick since with a growing list of problems that are all attributable to Dioxin.

For a good reference to what diseases and disorders are a result of Dioxin poisoning, I would recommend visiiting the VietNam Red Cross Site. Their list is about four times longer than the official list that the US Dept of Veterans Affairs officially recognizes.

And if anyone doubts what I say, you might have seen me on the National in the past couple of days.

IF anyone out there worked with AO or AP in any capacity or were exposed in any way, get yourself to your doctor and get an AFP blood test (Alpha Feta Protein) done every three months and don't stop having the test done. It may save your life. It is a cancer test.

Kenneth Dobbie

 
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