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The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread

It's getting to be a wee bit boring.
At every turn, Mr Harper is threatening to bring the Gov't down and call for an election.

Umm... why ???  The opposition parties have not opposed & all tabled legislation remain on the table... so, once again - why call an election.
 
We're going to end up with another minority. then whats he going to do? he can't call another election. I think most Canadians are happy with the status quo, the government is working somewhat, no one party is holding both the reigns and things are still getting done. I think most Canadians are still a bit edgy about giving one guy the key to throne room and if we learnt anything over the the past decade or so, majority governments are not always a good thing.

I agree with many of Harper's ideas, but that doesn't mean I trust him enough to give him the reigns and I think many Canadians feel the same way. Lets just say, that it's cautious optimism.
 
I'm not sure myself if I want a majority government of any party.  The recent dumping of certain programs has me worried.  I am not a member of the armed forces, but I respect what it has done for myself and for the country and well let's face it the rest of the world.

And the past 20 years I know the military has gotten the shaft so to speak.  I am not going to base my vote on which party will do the best for one issue.  Even if I 100% agree with that party, this country as many issues.  I did however used a program the CBC had on its website to help me decide who to vote for, http://www.votebyissue.org/cbc/ that is what I used in 2006 for the election.  For those who are uncertain about voting I found it helpful.

For those who are wondering,

12/12 with the NDP
10/12 with the Liberals
9/12 with the Bloc - I'm confused about this one, I consider them traitors to Canada.
6/12 with the Cons.

But oddly I did not vote NDP, because the NDP candidate for my riding I live in, well let's just say not the brightest person you met. 

But if there is an election I do hope we can get a party to help our military get the equipment it needs to get the job done and safely.   I know with some parties that is like asking for a miracle.
 
Interesting:

11/12 Conservative
9/12 Liberal
8/12 NDP

Of course this is based off the 2006 platforms and not the platforms of today, though I wager the difference in results might be minimal.
 
I am surprised that the media is not reporting about the discretion of the Governor General in this case.  Harper is saying that Parliament is dysfunctional-which is analogous to a de fact admission that he cannot maintain the confidence of the House of Commons.  Responsible government dictates that unless you have the confidence of the House of Commons your advice is not advice per se, but suggestion at best and by no means does this need to be heeded.  If I were the Governor General (one day, one day) I would ask Harper to do two things before listening to any of his advice.  Firstly, demonstrate that Harper as PM holds the confidence of the House of Commons.  Since Harper has had Parliament prorogued it is not clear whether is trying to deliberately avoid losing confidence.  He must empirically demonstrate that he is able to govern!  Though he runs the risk of be defeated and will fight tooth and nail to avoid this as the NDP, Liberals and Bloc are perfectly able to go to the Governor General and ask to form a coalition government in this instance, with one of those three leaders being commissioned as Prime Minister.  Or the Governor General can appoint Dion as PM at this point.  The second thing I would ask Harper as Governor General would be to amend the elections act to remove the provision of fixed election dates.  Harper is trying to have his cake and eat it too.  He wants to be hailed as a reformer though be willing to break the law (its non-binding so they are no punishments except in public opinion) when it suits him.  He is claiming now that it was never intended to deal with minority governments.  However, this seems a little disingenuous.  Why did he not mention this when he passed the legislation?  His explanations this past week seem a little too convenient for me.  As well, it is bad form for the PM request that the Governor General help him break the laws of Canada.  Given these factors, I argue that the Governor General is able to and in fact should refuse Harper’s advice.       
 
Just heard on the radio this morning that Harper is being advised to hold off on the election plans due to the Listeria (Hysteria) fiasco.  ::)
 
stegner said:
The second thing I would ask Harper as Governor General would be to amend the elections act to remove the provision of fixed election dates.  Harper is trying to have his cake and eat it too.  He wants to be hailed as a reformer though be willing to break the law (its non-binding so they are no punishments except in public opinion) when it suits him.  He is claiming now that it was never intended to deal with minority governments.     

So I take it if the Government was defeated in a confidence motion then you would acuse the Liberals, NDP, or Bloc of breaking the law too, as they would not be following the "fixed election date" as prescribed in the Elections Act.  I would think not.

Clearly this legislation was not intended for a minority government as the PM has only partial control over election dates.  The spirit of this law was to force majority governments to have a fixed date so that an election could not be called on convenience.

stegner said:
He has had the longest.  That does not necessarily the most successful, but I guess it depends on you define success.   I would submit the Chief and Pearson got more done during their shorter minorities.   But that is just me.

And just for clarification Stegner, the current government is not the longest serving minority.  Both PM King and PM Pearson had minority governments that lasted longer.  

That being said this has been a reasonably successful government.  It could have been better, it could have been worse.  The key is to keep the balances of minority government, ensuring that no one party has complete control to ram their agenda down our throats.  
 
Clearly this legislation was not intended for a minority government as the PM has only partial control over election dates.  The spirit of this law was to force majority governments to have a fixed date so that an election could not be called on convenience.

The bold is precisely what Harper is doing now. 

So I take it if the Government was defeated in a confidence motion then you would acuse the Liberals, NDP, or Bloc of breaking the law too, as they would not be following the "fixed election date" as prescribed in the Elections Act.  I would think not.

It is a little different for the opposition they did not propose this legislation, and nothing in the act prevents them from bringing down the government has been explicitly noted in this act.  However, if Harper does what he is saying that he will this is a clear breach of the law. 
If Harper is defeated that does not necessarily mean an election.  The Gov Gen could for instance appoint one of the opposition leaders as PM until October 19, 2009 (the fixed election date.)  The new PM could have the fixed election date removed and govern theoretically until Jan 2011, though convention holds that terms should be limited to four years, not the five prescribed by law.  So that would be Jan 2010.  There is a bit of obfuscation on this issue.  The issue is not that the Opposition wants an election, as Harper claims, and has put a stranglehold on Parliament.  The issue is that Harper wants an election-but is trying to blame it on the opposition.  If the opposition wanted an election they would brought down the government on the many many confidence votes and would have delayed the vast majority of the Conservatives legislation.  This is clearly not the case.
 
Telling the GG that he can no longer govern & thereby bring down the gov't....

I would contend that, the moment Mr Harper turn up at the GGs house, the GG could conceivable turn around and ask the opposition if they can form a coalition government.  They probably couldn't.

If Mr Harper choses to bring his own government down, it just leaves to question the need for the law in the 1st place.
 
Stegner,

I probably shouldn't be inserting my thoughts here, as I will be leaving in about 90 minutes for a extra-long weekend, but here goes.

Certainly the Governor General could, and there is the Byng precedent, but it would be a difficult step to justify. Whoever was asked to form a government should have to have the guaranteed support of enough votes from the opposition to carry out his agenda. Think Trudeau-Lewis in 1972 and the deal that kicked off a quarter century of massive deficits. Are both the Bloc and the NDP apt to guarantee their support to the Liberals? Otherwise we are faced with another trip to the polls in short order.

I subscribe to the theory put forward by Mr Flan(n)agan about the PM's strategic purpose. Think an election campaign that returns a minority government of whatever stripe and the more or less concurrent judgement against the Liberals in one or both of the two lawsuits against the Grits. Now follow that with another federal election in 18 months with the Conservatives flush with cash and the Liberals in debt big time and owing a judgement to, let us assume, the Green Shift company.

Possible yes; probable - maybe. I suggest the possibility of financial collapse has been a major factor in the Liberals allowing this government to survive for so long, despite all their rhetorical indignation.
 
stegner said:
I am surprised that the media is not reporting about the discretion of the Governor General in this case.  Harper is saying that Parliament is dysfunctional-which is analogous to a de fact admission that he cannot maintain the confidence of the House of Commons.   Responsible government dictates that unless you have the confidence of the House of Commons your advice is not advice per se, but suggestion at best and by no means does this need to be heeded.   If I were the Governor General (one day, one day) I would ask Harper to do two things before listening to any of his advice.  Firstly, demonstrate that Harper as PM holds the confidence of the House of Commons.   Since Harper has had Parliament prorogued it is not clear whether is trying to deliberately avoid losing confidence.  He must empirically demonstrate that he is able to govern!  Though he runs the risk of be defeated and will fight tooth and nail to avoid this as the NDP, Liberals and Bloc are perfectly able to go to the Governor General and ask to form a coalition government in this instance, with one of those three leaders being commissioned as Prime Minister.  Or the Governor General can appoint Dion as PM at this point.   The second thing I would ask Harper as Governor General would be to amend the elections act to remove the provision of fixed election dates.  Harper is trying to have his cake and eat it too.  He wants to be hailed as a reformer though be willing to break the law (its non-binding so they are no punishments except in public opinion) when it suits him.  He is claiming now that it was never intended to deal with minority governments.  However, this seems a little disingenuous.  Why did he not mention this when he passed the legislation?  His explanations this past week seem a little too convenient for me.   As well, it is bad form for the PM request that the Governor General help him break the laws of Canada.   Given these factors, I argue that the Governor General is able to and in fact should refuse Harper’s advice.       

I think stegner and most of the ‘experts’ whose opinions litter our daily papers are wrong. They, stegner and the ‘experts’ misunderstand our Constitution and misread our history – and the two are intertwined.

The King Byng thing (1926) confirmed two provisions of the Constitution:

1. The sovereign (governor general) must take appropriate Constitutional action when her (or his) prime minister no longer has the confidence of the House. Broadly the sovereign has two options:

a. Call a general election, or

b. When the situation permits call upon another (party) to form a government and seek the confidence of he House. This is the course of action Byng chose to follow in 1926 – against he advice of Prime Minister King; and

2. The sovereign must receive the advice of her (or his) prime minister but (s)he is not obliged to follow it.

But, notwithstanding the provisions of the Constitution as it existed n 1926, Byng and the Crown soon learned (through Meighen’s failure to secure confidence and the results of the consequential general election) that the political advice of the prime minister is – and must be accepted as – the final ‘authority’ on how to manage parliament.

Despite Trudeau’s 1982 amendments, the most important parts of the Constitution are unwritten – and are likely to remain so. The Constitution changes, day by day and year by year. The Constitution of Canada in the summer of 2008 is different, more ‘advanced’ than was the Constitution of Canada in the fall of 1926.

In 1926 there is little doubt hat Byng did the right thing because:

• The Conservatives, not King’s Liberals, were the largest party in the House;

• The last (1925) election was not ‘far enough’ in the past; and

• King was seeking dissolution to avoid censure in the House.

But, while those facts were legally and properly sufficient in 1926 they do not exist today. The Liberals are not the biggest party, the governing Conservatives are. The last election was more than two and a half years ago – quite long enough for most minority governments. Harper is not in any danger of being censured. The Szabo Zoo may be able to embarrass the Conservative Party in its kangaroo court but that has zero, zilch Constitutional significance. Further, the principle King established – that the prime minister, not the sovereign, is the best judge of how to mange parliament – means that the sovereign’s ‘reserve powers’ are further defined than they were n 1926.

The situation is: Nothing in the fixed election date law interferes, in even he smallest way, with the sovereign’s right to call an election when she ‘decides’ (on the advice of her prime minister) to do so. The law is, clearly, applicable only to stable, majority situations. The sovereign (governor general) must receive her prime minister’s advice re: dropping the writs and, post 1926, she is also bound to give it great weight. There is nothing in our (or Britain’s) Constitution to say that a ‘dysfunctional’ parliament is not good grounds for dissolution and a general election. Losing a vote is the most common way for parliament to deny a government confidence but it need not be the only one; the Constitution, being unwritten, is flexible and changes, as I said, day by day and so on.

I suspect that the GG’s political and legal advisors are very cognizant of the Constitutional and historical realities – unlike most of the ‘experts’ – and will advise HE to grant Mr. Harper the election he wants when he wants it and for the reasons he offers.

To do otherwise would be to turn the clock back by 80+ years and that, in an of itself, would be unconstitutional. The Constitution has changed since 1926; the situation is also quite different; if Prime Minister Harper says he cannot govern then the GG must call an election. She is duty bound to uphold the Constitution.

 
The King Byng thing (1926) confirmed two provisions of the Constitution:

1.  The sovereign (governor general) must take appropriate Constitutional action when her (or his) prime minister no longer has the confidence of the House. Broadly the sovereign has two options:

a.  Call a general election, or

b.  When the situation permits call upon another (party) to form a government and seek the confidence of he House. This is the course of action Byng chose to follow in 1926 – against he advice of Prime Minister King; and
2.  The sovereign must receive the advice of her (or his) prime minister but (s)he is not obliged to follow it.

But, notwithstanding the provisions of the Constitution as it existed n 1926, Byng and the Crown soon learned (through Meighen’s failure to secure confidence and the results of the consequential general election) that the political advice of the prime minister is – and must be accepted as – the final ‘authority’ on how to manage parliament.

Despite Trudeau’s 1982 amendments, the most important parts of the Constitution are unwritten – and are likely to remain so. The Constitution changes, day by day and year by year. The Constitution of Canada in the summer of 2008 is different, more ‘advanced’ than was the Constitution of Canada in the fall of 1926.

How exactly has the Constitution changed vis a vis the powers of the Governors General since 1926?  How is the BNA Act, 1867 anymore advance now than it was in 1867?  It is not.  This is the document that outlines the legal powers of the Governor General and Lieutenant Governor in (i.e. Sections 3, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 24, 34, 38, 50, 54, 55, 57, 58, 59, 90 & 99 of the Constitution Act, 1867.  I am afraid Mr Campbell to paraphrase Eugene Forsey that you have been taken in by the 'Liberal Party folklore' that has masqueraded as convention re the power of vice-regals in Canada since the Byng episode.  Byng won not because he was right but because he played on colonial resentment of Britain and Imperialism in the era after the First World War.  I think the Letter Patent of 1947 was a polite screw you to Canadian PM's as it did not codify any of the conventions that you claim were established.  Thus, the Byng episode establishes that a snotty PM managed to get away with quite a lot back in 1926.  It does not establish the broad set of conventions you claim.  King was an opportunist and when he tried to provoke another crisis involving the Governor General in 1934-35 it largely failed, but Liberal historians forgot to document this episode.  As well, I would advise that you read the Letters Patent as well as the proceeding of the Imperial Conferences post-Byng-King before commenting further on the role of the Governor General.  I think some of the material therein may change some of your opinions.


if Prime Minister Harper says he cannot govern then the GG must call an election.

Respectfully, if he says this he is asserting that he no longer has the confidence of the house of the commons.  At this point his advice is no longer advice, but it is suggestion.  If he doesn't want to demonstrate that he can maintain the confidence in the face of this dysfunction-his advice should should be viewed as such.

To do otherwise would be to turn the clock back by 80+ years and that, in an of itself, would be unconstitutional. The Constitution has changed since 1926; the situation is also quite different; if Prime Minister Harper says he cannot govern then the GG must call an election. She is duty bound to uphold the Constitution.

How so?  Which part of the Constitution would be violated?

I think the Governor General would be well within her rights to refuse Harper's dissolution request and say that he either remain in power until October 19, 2009 or resign.  I challenge you to find how this would violate the Constitution. 
 
I think you are mixing up Canada's written constitution and its unwritten conventions.  This is Poli Sci 101.  With Parliament, there is a big difference between the de jure and de facto administration of the country.
 
I think you are mixing up Canada's written constitution and its unwritten conventions.  This is Poli Sci 101.  With Parliament, there is a big difference between the de jure and de facto administration of the country.

I have got news for you unwritten covention is part of the Constitution.  If you look at any intro to Canadian politcs textbook thay will tell you that the Canadian Constitution is comprised of legal documents and unwritten convention.  Don't believe me?  Try finding the position of Prime Minister in the Constitution Act, 1867 or 1982.  You will not be able to, as the PM is part of convention rather than any legal document. 
 
Btw.  If Harper is going to call an election how appropriate is that he is government funds to travel up North for some photo-ops that will be undoubtedly used in election campaign.  If the de facto campaign has begun, perhaps the CPC should be paying for this and not the tax payer.  I am used to these kind of things with Liberal PM's.  However,  I thought Harper would be at least be a bit better in this respect (accountability and all that jazz).  Alas, he is not :(
 
stegner said:
How exactly has the Constitution changed vis a vis the powers of the Governors General since 1926? 

In its unwritten provision that the 'reserve powers' give gave the sovereign good political judgment to go along with her undoubted rights. King proved that political judgment of elected leaders is superior to that of the sovereign. No GG since Byng has attempted to manage the way Byng did. (And we've had minority parliaments in 1963, '66, '73, '79, 2004 and '06.)

Now, in fairness, no GG has faced quite the same situation - and Michaëlle Jean does not face a similar (to the Byng King thing) situation now - but the sovereign's reserve powers have been constrained in Constitutional practice - which is all that matters.

 
stegner said:
...
Respectfully, if he says this he is asserting that he no longer has the confidence of the house of the commons.  At this point his advice is no longer advice, but it is suggestion.  If he doesn't want to demonstrate that he can maintain the confidence in the face of this dysfunction-his advice should should be viewed as such.
...

Not at all! He remains PM and the sovereign remains bound to take his advice until a new cabinet is sworn into office.

Once again, Constitutional convention limits the sorts of advice he may offer, but one can quite reasonably imagine all sorts of situations, including national emergencies, that might occur during a general election campaign and that might require the government - the one seeking re-election - to seek an Order-in-Council and might, equally, require the GG to give it.

The fact is that the PM can claim that dysfunction means that Canadians need a general election. There is no situation, as there was in 1926, that might give the GG valid cause to refuse to drop the writs.

PMs with majorities went to the GG on a routine basis and said, "Give me an election just because I want one, just because I think the time is right." A PM does not have to lose confidence to trigger an election.
 
Now, in fairness, no GG has faced quite the same situation - and Michaëlle Jean does not face a similar (to the Byng King thing) situation now - but the sovereign's reserve powers have been constrained in Constitutional practice - which is all that matters.

Says who?  Where is the proof of this?  It's not in the Letter Patent, 1947 which was implemented post Byng-King?  I think you should consider  the actions of Edward Schreyer as GG, John Bowen in 1937-38 (as LG of Alberta), Bastedo in 1961 (as LG of Saskatchewan) and David Lam in 1991 (as LG of British Columbia).  Those vice-regals demonstrated the continued efficacy of the reserve power.  With respect to the Commonwealth, look no further than the actions of Sir John Kerr in Australia in 1975 and Sir Paul Scoon in Grenada in 1983.  The reserve powers are still in effect.  Read Eugene Forsey!
 
I never said the reserve powers were cancelled, but they have been, steadily, 'defined' and 'refined' - especially during the 20th century.

(By the way, that long list of Constitutional clauses you provided is quite irrelevant. The discussion is not about the written duties of the GG; rather, what matters now are the unwritten 'powers' of the GG and of the PM.)

The GG has the Constitutional power, in the current situation, to deny an election. The fixed election dates act means that Harper must find a 'Constitutionally plausible' rationale for calling an election prior to Oct 09. A 'dysfunctional parliament' ought to do the trick. But, so long as he does offer some 'plausible' reason the GG would be hard pressed to find any way to refuse because, in the end, Byng won the first and second rounds but King KO'd him (and all subsequent GGs) in the third!

 
stegner said:
Btw.  If Harper is going to call an election how appropriate is that he is government funds to travel up North for some photo-ops that will be undoubtedly used in election campaign.  If the de facto campaign has begun, perhaps the CPC should be paying for this and not the tax payer.   I am used to these kind of things with Liberal PM's.  However,  I thought Harper would be at least be a bit better in this respect (accountability and all that jazz).  Alas, he is not :(

Oh please, as if the Lieberals couldnt not be accused of the exact same thing.

As for the GG, i'm sure it is not lost on her office that if she were to go against the advice of the PM, it would be seen by the public as one unellected official going against the decision made by an ellected one. Constituional powers or not, i'm sure even she sees the pitfalls.
 
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