Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged

[3green]

I have a question regarding meal allowances when on TD as aircrew. A search of the forum revealed nothing on this topic.

As aircrew, flying a mission on TD and returning to home base, what is the applicable time used to determine when a member is entitled to a meal? I believe the applicable ref from the TD manual is 7.18.4.c.ii "...a member who, for a full day, is on duty travel is entitled - except in respect of any meal that is provided at no expense to the member - to a breakfast, lunch and dinner allowance. .... if the member arrives home from duty travel after 1800 hours local time"

To me this means that if the plane lands at 1655 local time, taxi in and shut down at 1705 local time (which is the legal definition of the end of the "flight time" and therefore is the legal "arrival time") and then the crew proceeds to complete roughly an hour of paperwork (which is typical) that would put the member leaving the workplace around 1805. Normally, being at "work" during the dinner hour is sufficient to consider dinner an entitlement - at least old units have interpreted it that way. Often, it is assumed if the plane lands at 1700L or later, the crew will depart at 1800L and dinner is therefore assumed to be an entitlement. The TD manual seems to go a step further and define the entitlement as when you arrive at home (not merely when you leave work).

My unit is interpreting the time as the time that the aircraft lands on the runway - even though generally 5 to 10 minutes of taxi time is required before shutting down - which is the actual legal definition of the "arrival" for a flight. So if the plane lands at 1755, but the crew havent even taken off their seatbelts until 1805, there is no entitlement to dinner despire the fact that we may be "working" until well after 1900. This is a very different interpretation of the orders, although the OR claims that this is setout by the Treasury Board and the auditor and absolutely no allowance is made for anything but the moment when the wheels touch the runway.

Any admin guru's have insight on this? Surely the spirit of the rule, if not the letter of the law isn't being followed here.

 

[DAA]

Generally, it all depends on whether or not during your TD/Mission, there involved an "overnight" stay on the outbound journey.  If so, then you are correct, 7.18 (4)(c)(ii) would apply.  In this case, your TD starts from the time you leave "home" and not the time you go wheels up.

If there is NO overnight stay involved, then 6.18(4)(c)(ii) would be the one and is pretty much a repeat of Chap 7.

However, I am inclined to think that they might be using Chap 5 as the defining factor in this.

CFTDTI 5.19 (3)  -  Meals - Delay.  A reasonably delayed meal hour does not by itself create an entitlement to a meal at Crown expense.

At the end of the day, there are NO specific instructions strictly for Aircrew, so everything would be subject to local interpretation and at the discretion of the approving authority.

 

[George Wallace]

Would this now mean that a MTech has to be done?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Try looking in the FOM for what constitutes the end of your crew day.  Obviously it doesn't end on landing. 

Might be one for your AFC (or equiv) to take up with your SAO.  :2c:

 

[3green]

This was an overnight mission, where I was returning to base after a few days on the road - therefore I believe chapter 7 is the correct one. The CFOM is clear that FLIGHT times are logged from when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purposes of going flying until it ceases to move (parked). That means basically parking brake off to parking brake on. AIR times are from wheels up to wheels down and are more for aircraft maintenance purposes than for official flight time or arrival/departure time purposes.

My unit is using air time (and ignoring the potentially long taxi time) to define arrival. In addition, they refuse to acknowledge any time required post flight for end of mission duties, which can take an hour or more. This is completely different from how most (if not all) other active air units handle claims (and their respective auditors don't have a problem with that).

Thanks for the info, I appreciate the help.




Crew day is a separate thing but would be defined from when the first crew member shows up at the Squadron or hotel lobby, until the last crew member leaves the Squadron or arrives at the hotel lobby. Using that logic, I still left work while inside the dinner hour.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Our Squadron Admin orders specify that for the purpose of a claim, 1h30 shall be added to the land time and 1h30 substracted before takeoff.  When our OR gave us grief, we took it to the DCO and it was added to our orders...

Too bad we need orders to substitute for common sense...

 

[DAA]

This was an overnight mission, where I was returning to base after a few days on the road - therefore I believe chapter 7 is the correct one. The CFOM is clear that FLIGHT times are logged from when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purposes of going flying until it ceases to move (parked). That means basically parking brake off to parking brake on. AIR times are from wheels up to wheels down and are more for aircraft maintenance purposes than for official flight time or arrival/departure time purposes.

My unit is using air time (and ignoring the potentially long taxi time) to define arrival. In addition, they refuse to acknowledge any time required post flight for end of mission duties, which can take an hour or more. This is completely different from how most (if not all) other active air units handle claims (and their respective auditors don't have a problem with that).

Thanks for the info, I appreciate the help.

Crew day is a separate thing but would be defined from when the first crew member shows up at the Squadron or hotel lobby, until the last crew member leaves the Squadron or arrives at the hotel lobby. Using that logic, I still left work while inside the dinner hour.

This sounds more like whomever is holding the "purse strings" is holding them a tad bit too tightly.....    :2c:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My unit is using air time (and ignoring the potentially long taxi time) to define arrival. In addition, they refuse to acknowledge any time required post flight for end of mission duties, which can take an hour or more. This is completely different from how most (if not all) other active air units handle claims (and their respective auditors don't have a problem with that).

The yellow part seems to be the problem.  We're not even close to done at the E/OFF; tidy up the plane, move to location for kit to be sign back in, sign kit in and debrief are minimum things to be done.  After that, there is still the drive home.

When you say "my unit", do you mean it's in Sqn Orders, or this is what the SOR is using/doing (I can't image the first, but can image the latter)?  Sounds to me like something the CofC should provide clarity on to the SAO or in Sqn Orders like SSM mentioned.

CFTDI Chap 7 Art that DAA posted seems to make it clear though; (ii) if the member arrives home from duty travel after 1800 hours local time.

It doesn't say 'arrives on airfield'.

 

[3green]

This is an orderly room interpretation, apparently based on what an auditor told them is the only acceptible means. It really appears to be a witch hunt to find any and every means to deny or withdraw money from the member.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ask your SOR staff if they consider their "home" to be where they live, or SOR.  ;D

 

[DAA]

This is an orderly room interpretation, apparently based on what an auditor told them is the only acceptible means. It really appears to be a witch hunt to find any and every means to deny or withdraw money from the member.

What I also see, is that they "might" be looking at the fact that you are "reporting" to your normal place of duty and then commencing TD from that location onwards, which leads me to believe that they are also using the same methodology on the return, so they obviously believe that when you arrive back on the tarmac, your TD automatically "stops".  Either way, someone is being rather "creative".

Really makes no difference what an "auditor" says, you can always ask your OR to broach the subject with DCBA for a more formal ruling based on the circumstances.

 

[captloadie]

Ahh, but there are also so many other factors to consider now. The new caveate for TD is timings are taken form where you start your day, not finish it. And were you provided a crew meal on the aircraft. Because you were in your HQ area, did you need to provide a receipt. And on and on and on.

At the end of the day, the entitlement is to be reimbursed for expenses incurred while on temporary duty. I have alway had an issue with someone who thinks they are "entitled" to the per diem rate for a meal just because they have arrived at 1810, and then go home and eat leftovers.

 

[DAA]

At the end of the day, the entitlement is to be reimbursed for expenses incurred while on temporary duty. I have alway had an issue with someone who thinks they are "entitled" to the per diem rate for a meal just because they have arrived at 1810, and then go home and eat leftovers.

Could always go back in time when the regulation actually said "When on TD, meals consumed on the first and last day of travel must be supported by receipts."  It would make life so much easier and take all the "guess" work out of things.

The last bun fight I saw on meal issues dealt with staying in commercial accommodations, where a "continental breakfast" was provided with the room and thus, not being able to claim breakfast.    :facepalm:

 

[CountDC]

I agree with Capt on the entitlement for expenses and not just because you get home late and ate.

There is plenty of flex in the book to cover this so I think either the SOR staff understood wrong or the auditor was out to lunch.  I would allow the meal as a local meal if you provided confirmation that you were required to work until XX hour and a receipt from an eatery near the base reflecting a reasonable time (not the bar downtown reading 2300h).    I am guessing that the unit does have some form of standing order detailing all the work that must be carried out after landing so justification is there.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Why would this (confirmation, receipt, reasonable time) be required if the CFTDI covers it as my post above?

CFTDI Chap 7 Art that DAA posted seems to make it clear though; (ii) if the member arrives home from duty travel after 1800 hours local time.

 

[DAA]

Why would this (confirmation, receipt, reasonable time) be required if the CFTDI covers it as my post above?

They might be making reference to a DCBA email which came out recently providing clarification on the claiming of meals under certain circumstances (ie; 3rd party) and the requirement to provide receipts.

Believe it or not, there is NO clear guidance on what constitutes a proper "meal", so it's kind of left to the imagination.  There have been many instances, where commercial accommodations state "continental breakfast included in room cost" and as a result, some units refuse to pay the "breakfast" rate on a claim.  Hence, the requirement to provide a receipt for "actual out of pocket" expenses, including justification as to why "you" as the traveller, thought said continental breakfast was not sufficient.    :facepalm:

Sometimes, things are not all black and white.  At one time, I used to be one of those hard nose people finalizing your claim and if it wasn't spelled out in the regs you're not getting it!  Today is another story..........

 

[Eye In The Sky]

A few points for consideration, based on the current CFTDI.  Relevant content below, highlights mine.

1.05 — CFTDTI — AUTHORITY
In the CFTDTI, immediately following every instruction:
(a) made under the authority of the TB, there shall be in parentheses the letter “T”;and
(b) made under the authority of the CDS, there shall be in parentheses the letter “C”.

1.06 — CFTDTI — ISSUING AUTHORITY
(2) The Director General Compensation and Benefits (DGCB) shall notify the Treasury Board Secretariat (TBS) of any proposed amendment to the instructions made under the authority of the CDS, and shall inform the CMP of any TBS comment upon that amendment before it is approved.

CHAPTER 2

2.02 — DEFINITIONS — CFTDTI
In the CFTDTI:
“actual and reasonable expenses” means expenses that:
(a) are paid by a member;
(b) are specified on a receipt; and
(c) do not exceed a maximum amount — if there is one — for the expense set out in the NJC Travel Directive.

“declaration” means a written statement in which a member attests to an amount of money paid by a member — showing the payment date, amount, and currency and in respect of which the member lacks a receipt

“receipt” means a written acknowledgment of an amount of money paid by a member, showing the payment date, amount, and currency.

4.02 — SPECIAL POWER — DELEGATION
The officers in the positions of CMP, Director General Compensation and Benefits (DGCB), and DCBA have been delegated the Chief of the Defence Staff’s power under instruction 4.01 (Special Power of the Chief of the Defence Staff). The power cannot be subdelegated.
(C)

CHAPTER 7
TRAVEL IN CANADA AND CONTINENTAL USA & OVERNIGHT STAY

SECTION 2 — ACCOMMODATION, MEALS, AND OTHER BENEFITS

* I've included the Accn sub-section to show the use of 'actual and reasonable expenses' IAW the Ch 2 definition.

7.02 — ACCOMMODATION
(1) (Selection) An approving authority selects a member’s accommodation — or combination of accommodations — on duty travel after consideration of all of the following:
(a) whether suitable quarters are available at the duty area;
(b) whether the member has a principal residence in the duty area;
(c) the estimated duration of the member’s duty in the duty area;
(d) the relative cost and convenience of available accommodations in the duty area; and
(e) the CF’s operational needs.
(2) (Entitlement and Amount) Subject to paragraphs (1) and (3), a member is entitled to be reimbursed:
(a) in respect of commercial accommodations, non-commercial accommodations, and quarters, for actual and reasonable expenses;

Note the 'actual and reasonable expenses' wording specifically included in 7.02;  receipts required, etc IAW Ch 2 - Definitions above.  You'll note the same wording included in 7.04 — ADDITIONAL BUSINESS EXPENSES, 7.06 — BOTTLED WATER and 7.10 — EXCESS BAGGAGE as well. 

7.18 — MEAL ALLOWANCES
(1) (Entitlement — Full Day of Duty Travel) Subject to paragraph (4), a member who, for a full day, is on duty travel is entitled — except in respect of any meal that is provided at no expense to the member — to a breakfast, lunch, and dinner allowance.

2) (Entitlement — Less Than A Full Day of Duty Travel) Subject to paragraphs (3) and
(4), a member who, for less than a full day, is on duty travel is entitled — except in respect of any meal that is provided at no expense to the member — to:
(a) a breakfast allowance,
(i) if the member departs home on duty travel before 0630 hours local time, or
(ii) if the member arrives home from duty travel after 0800 hours local time.
(b) a lunch allowance, if the member is on duty travel between 1130 hours and 1300 hours local time; and
(c) a dinner allowance,
(i) if the member departs home on duty travel before 1800 hours local time, or
(ii) if the member arrives home from duty travel after 1800 hours local time.

(3) (Local Time — Less Than A Full Day) Local time means the time at the place of departure.


- note the phrase 'actual and reasonable expenses' is specifically omitted in 7.18.  As it was included previously in Ch 7 (and other chapters), it certainly doesn't appear to be left out in error.  There is also no mention for a requirement for receipts or declarations (Ch 2 definitions).

- There is a (T) at the end of Art 7.18.  Unless I am reading Ch 1 incorrectly, 7.18 is under the authority of the TB, not the CDS and therefore, not under the delegated authority of DCBA IAW Chap 4. 

- 7.18(3) could be of relevance to the OP depending on where they were, what time they left/arrived.

 

[CountDC]

Confirmation - because as a signing auth I want to make sure there is an entitlement.  Simply because he arrived home after 1800h does not mean he couldn't have been home before then.  As far as I know he could have been dismissed at 1600h and if went directly home been there by 1630h but instead went drinking untl 2300h before crawling into his house at 2330h  (pretty damn sure I am not the only one that has ever done that).

Reasonable time - ok thought about that again after reading the current regulation again.  Reasonable time is no longer applicable.

Receipt - a member who, for less than a full day, is on duty travel is entitled — except in respect of any meal that is provided at no expense to the member.  Prove to me that the meal was not provided to you at no expense.  What - you went home and mama that you live with for free fed you.  yeah - no meal claim.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The entitlement is laid out in the ref, by the TB and there is no requirement for the receipt.  You can't make one up that the TB doesn't even require.  DCBA doesn't have any say in this, why would unit SOR staff?  Come on, be serious here.  I posted the refs, there is ZERO requirement for a receipt.  ZERO.  You can't inject it there "because you feel like it".

THIS is part of the problem we have in admin these days; people adding on their own requirements that aren't required. 

* This problem isn't limited to admin and isn't new either;  I remember teaching on a CLC in '96 where the Crse Officer "amended" the criteria for critical requirements on the student scoring matrix because 'he didn't think it was good enough'.  Oddly enough, the Leadership Standards cell found out and shortly thereafter Lt MyWay was visited by MWO Angry. 

 

[CountDC]

but that is the nice part of being a sect 34, the mbr will provide or find someone else to sign off on it.  It doesn't say receipt is required but it does say except in respect of any meal that is provided at no expense to the member - easiest way to prove this is to produce the receipt.  Of course if you can find another way to prove this then I will happily look at it - bank statement, credit card statement, affidavit, stat dec, grocery receipt within the last week, maybe bring your mama in to swear she didnt feed you....

Too much?  ok, pulling your chain there.

Actually this generated a fair amount of discussion here in the last week that became an eye opener with several opinions on the subject.  At the end of it all though I mulled over everything that was said and realized I didn't want to go down that road and actually be what I fought against for almost 30 years.  Putting myself back into my old shoes I asked the question - when a mbr travels here from the other locations on Ex how do we know if lunch or dinner was provided?  We provide it.  We have the proof as we ordered the meals and had the members sign for them.  Looking at it from the other end  - why should the mbr have to prove it?  How about we prove that a meal was provided.  The real eye opener was when the clerk stated they didnt think anyone arriving home by 7 should get the meal as they could still eat at home and I answered - so what, that is still not a meal provided at no cost to the member.  Sometimes it does take hammers.

Still don't agree with the policy but can live with it untll they change it to be reasonable but i still want the confirmation on work hours though.