Tanker War 2.0

[Oldgateboatdriver]

As usual, FJAG, in the Navy it's always about the mission you are there to fulfill.

MCDV are primarily underwater warfare vessels, and mine warfare vessels more specifically. Their equipment and armement are optimized for mapping of bottom of ocean objects, and then analyzing, classifying and destroying them. As a secondary role, they are capble of support to other governement department for constabulary duties (fisheries, drug interdiction, security boardings of merchant vessels), something for which their speed and armement is appropriate.

P.S.: The MCDV's are ships - S-H-I-P-S - not "boats".

 

[FJAG]

That's what I always thought but if Wikipedia can be believed (and why shouldn't it, it's written by guys living in their mom's basement) we have only a very few mine hunting packages available for the fleet and there seems to be no under surface weapon systems (I presume they would need to work in conjunction with Frigates or other air resources to do that.)

Since we don't have the manpower to properly man the frigates, I presume the MCDVs are very far down the priority list for manning and missions (even for the reserves that were supposed to crew them)

:cheers:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

LCS are frigate size vessels.

You want both speed, stealth and survivability in that environment? Here's the top dog, IMHO.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Hamina-luokka_Hanko.JPG

Yes the Swedish stuff is designed with knife fighting in confined waterways in mind. although you might need A/C for the Gulf

 

[GR66]

A fast patrol boat might be the right platform for the Persian Gulf, but where does that kind of vessel fit into the RCN's overall needs?  Could it do enough other things for us to make it worthwhile? 

I'm all in favour of expanding the RCN, but would the money be better spent on something more versatile like a corvette with a helicopter landing pad?  Something that has better range for patrolling our coast, better sea keeping for operations in the North Atlantic, ASW capability, etc?  There are a number of examples with crews in the 60-80 range that might be options.

And personally, if it comes down to funding choices with our limited budget I'd rather put it into replacement subs if it's an either-or proposition.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Meanwhile, in the UK, more hand wringing over the Iranians handing the Royal Navy their 'cover' yet again:

"The Royal Navy is too small to counter the potential threat from Iran, the defence minister has admitted.

Tobias Ellwood told The Times: “The threats we’re facing are changing in front of us, the world is getting more complex. If we are wanting to continue to play this influential role on the international stage it will require further funding for our armed forces, not least the Royal Navy. Our Royal Navy is too small to manage our interests across the globe.”

https://www.theweek.co.uk/102362/is-the-royal-navy-too-small-to-deal-with-iranian-threat

 

[Stoker]

That's what I always thought but if Wikipedia can be believed (and why shouldn't it, it's written by guys living in their mom's basement) we have only a very few mine hunting packages available for the fleet and there seems to be no under surface weapon systems (I presume they would need to work in conjunction with Frigates or other air resources to do that.)

Since we don't have the manpower to properly man the frigates, I presume the MCDVs are very far down the priority list for manning and missions (even for the reserves that were supposed to crew them)

:cheers:

MCDVs manning is pretty stable these days at least on the East Coast. Reserves play a very small role in manning. We are currently operating four ships with two in their 60 monthly docking with extensive upgrades. We currently have one ship on OP Caribbe  doing anti drug patrols, another supporting FDU  in unexploded ordinance recovery in NL, one getting ready to deploy to the Arctic and another getting ready for exercise Cutlass fury. In the last year the ships have deployed to the Arctic, Carribean, Africa and Europe. This is the busiest MCDVs have ever been.
Currently MCDVs can embark  multibeam echo sounder for hydrographic work which they have used extensively in the Arctic, several different route survey payloads, AUV mine warfare payloads. Recently the MCDVs have been trialing a ASW towed array payload (TRAPS) that can be fitted to detect submarines.
Other capabilities being brought to the class is a UAV and IR capability.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Without a doubt the MCDV have been money well spent, you sure the hell would not want to send them to the Gulf as they are almost unarmed and no match for any other vessel there.

 

[Stoker]

Without a doubt the MCDV have been money well spent, you sure the hell would not want to send them to the Gulf as they are almost unarmed and no match for any other vessel there.

Not sure they will ever be deployed in the Gulf however they have been the Mediterranean and Africa and done stellar work.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Certainly not with their present armament, eventually Africa will get to hot as well.

 

[Stoker]

Certainly not with their present armament, eventually Africa will get to hot as well.

I would imagine to deploy to the Gulf would be appropriately armed, probably a 25mm. The risk in Africa is low and will continue to be low in the Gulf of Guinea where they operate. Each time they deploy a risk assessment is carried out. The ships also carry some tools to be more effective there.

 

[tomahawk6]

Since the UK is short on naval assets why cant she call on Commonwealth nations to lend a hand ?

 

[kratz]

Since the UK is short on naval assets why cant she call on Commonwealth nations to lend a hand ?

Our illustrious supreme leader would automatically quote himself, "...because it's 2019".  /s

 

[dimsum]

Without a doubt the MCDV have been money well spent, you sure the hell would not want to send them to the Gulf as they are almost unarmed and no match for any other vessel there.

If there was ever a reason to get those things up-gunned (and put something on the old 40mm mount and maybe perhaps on the sweep deck), that would be it  :nod:

 

[Halifax Tar]

Since the UK is short on naval assets why cant she call on Commonwealth nations to lend a hand ?

We have an allegiance to the Queen, not the British Parliament is my understanding.

 

[Edward Campbell]

We have an allegiance to the Queen, not the British Parliament is my understanding.

Canada, amongst others, did provide considerable and much needed naval support to the UK in the Falklands War, primarily by picking up non-Falklands UK commitments. Some allies (including Canada? I cannot remember) provided the UK with munitions ~ air-to-air missiles, I recall, specifically. There were also other areas in which support was provided.

It can happen, quietly, if a foreign, friendly, allied government makes a formal request; it's not automatic.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Yes the Swedish stuff is designed with knife fighting in confined waterways in mind. although you might need A/C for the Gulf

Actually, the Hamina-class missile boat is Finnish, not  Swedish and the only reason I know that is because I was going to post an article on the Hamina when I saw the older post by Oldgateboatdriver.

But Oldgateboatdriver does have a point; not only do they have "speed, stealth and survivability" but once upgrades are completed they will have a 40mm Mk.4 cannon, 12.7mm RWS, the latest Torpedo (Torped 470) capability, Gabriel Mk.5 anti-ship missile, plus a upgraded Combat Management System, radars and fire control system and a new sonar. Plus, they will retain their eight Umkhonto SAMs in vertical launchers.

I'm not a naval expert, but that sounds like a pretty big punch for a vessel that is only 167 ft in length.

 

[Underway]

Currently MCDVs can embark  multibeam echo sounder for hydrographic work which they have used extensively in the Arctic, several different route survey payloads, AUV mine warfare payloads. Recently the MCDVs have been trialing a ASW towed array payload (TRAPS) that can be fitted to detect submarines.
Other capabilities being brought to the class is a UAV and IR capability.

Funny how that all comes once the Reg F start sailing on those ships more regularly...

 

[Stoker]

Funny how that all comes once the Reg F start sailing on those ships more regularly...

Yet the skill level overall aboard the Kingston Class is not the same when most of the crew were reserves.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Say again?

 

[Stoker]

Say again?

Easy, when the reserves were in the ships they had people with years experience doing the job, sometimes decades. You can't buy that experience and ownership that brings. Currently crews comes in for relatively short periods of time, CO's and Coxn's are typically in for one year postings. It is not uncommon to have over 50% crew change outs from mission to mission, the skills and ownership are not the same. It will take time to build that kind of experience. Its not a criticism, its an observation.