Syria Superthread [merged]

[tomahawk6]

When is the UN going to demand a no fly zone for Syria ?

 

[Journeyman]

When is the UN going to demand a no fly zone for Syria ?

:rofl:  But they're a "respected" Arab state. A Syrian no-fly zone would be kowtowing to the Israeli lobby.


....oh, you were serious  :-[

 

[tomahawk6]

There are signs that the 4th divison of the Syrian Army may have fired on the 4th Division in Deraa. The 5th divison may see itself as the protector of the civilian populace.The 4th division is led by Maher Assad. There are rumors that the rebels have trapped Maher Assad and Rustom Ghazali[Assad's man in Deraa] or might even have captured them. Bottom line is that there are elemnets in the Army tht dont approve of the heavy hand being used against civilians.

 

[old medic]

When is the UN going to demand a no fly zone for Syria ?

Push in U.N. for Criticism of Syria Is Rejected
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR
Published: April 27, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/world/middleeast/28nations.html

UNITED NATIONS — An attempt by the United States and its European allies to condemn Syria in the United Nations Security Council was rebuffed on Wednesday, as the willingness to intervene in the region — strong enough to lead to military action against Libya under similar circumstances just weeks ago — appeared to evaporate.

Western nations failed to secure the simplest of Security Council measures: a press statement calling on Syria’s leaders to stop the violence against their own people.

Envoys for several wary Council members that had agreed to at least abstain in the vote against Libya, particularly Russia, spoke out against any international intervention on Wednesday, while Lebanon would have found it impossible to support criticism given the influence Syria holds over it. The required unanimity among the 15 members for a press statement was impossible.

“The current situation in Syria, despite the increase in tension, does not represent a threat to international peace and security,” said Alexander Pankin, the Russian deputy permanent representative to the United Nations. Intervening would be “an invitation to civil war,” he said. All council members addressed the body after it became clear that no consensus would emerge. .......................



UN seeking urgent access to Syria's Deraa
By JORDANA HORN,  JPOST CORRESPONDENT
04/29/2011 02:50
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=218371


Security Council hears that Syrian army is carrying out a major operation int he city, firing at civilians preventing medical care.

NEW YORK – The UN undersecretary- general for political affairs told Security Council members Wednesday that the United Nations wants urgent access to the city of Deraa in southern Syria, so that it can assess the humanitarian needs on the ground.

Reliable sources, B. Lynn Pascoe told the body Wednesday, report that the Syrian army is carrying out a major operation in Deraa, both firing at unarmed civilians and preventing the wounded from getting medical care. Pascoe estimated the current death toll of demonstrators as being between 350 and 400...............

 

[57Chevy]

                        From the Gazette and shared with provisions of the Copyright Act

Tanks shell Syrian town, West piles on pressure
Khaled Yacoub Oweis, Reuters May 18, 2011
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Tanks+shell+Syrian+town+West+piles+pressure/4802132/story.html#ixzz1MhUbsyBm

AMMAN — Tanks bombarded a Syrian border town for the fourth day on Wednesday in a military campaign to crush protests against President Bashar al-Assad, under mounting Western pressure to stop his violent repression of demonstrators.

Troops went into Tel Kelakh on Saturday, a day after a demonstration there demanded "the overthrow of the regime", the slogan of revolutions that toppled Arab leaders in Egypt and Tunisia and challenged others across the Middle East.

Assad had been partly rehabilitated in the West over the last three years but the United States and European Union condemned his use of force to quell unrest and warned they plan further steps after imposing sanctions on top Syrian officials.

Human rights groups say Assad's crackdown has killed at least 700 civilians. Authorities blame most of the violence on armed groups backed by Islamists and outside powers, saying they have also killed more than 120 soldiers and police.

"We're still without water, electricity or communications," a resident of Tel Kelakh said, speaking by satellite phone.

He said the army was storming houses and making arrests, but withdrawing from neighbourhoods after the raids. In a sign that the army was coming under fire in the town, he said some families "are resisting, preferring death to humiliation".

Syria has barred most international media organisations from operating in Syria, making it hard to verify reports from activists and officials.

article continues at link...

 

[sean m]

Here is an interesting article from sky news and why the armed forces seem to be still supporting the Assad regime

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Sky-News-Analysis-Tim-Marshall-Looks-At-Why-The-Bashir-Al-Assad-Regime-Has-Not-Collapsed/Article/201105115987446?lpos=World_News_First_Home_Page_Feature_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15987446_Sky_News_Analysis%3A_Tim_Marshall_Looks_At_Why_The_Bashir_Al_Assad_Regime_Has_Not_Collapsed_

 

[57Chevy]

---
...particularly Russia, spoke out against any international intervention
---
“The current situation in Syria, despite the increase in tension, does not represent a threat to international peace and security,” said Alexander Pankin, the Russian deputy permanent representative to the United Nations. Intervening would be “an invitation to civil war,” he said.

Russia has not asked Syria yet to host its naval base in Tartus - Syrian diplomat (April 01, 2011)
http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?y=2011&m=4&d=1&pg=11&id=233285
MOSCOW. April 1 (Interfax) - Syria expects Russia to finally decide on the idea to set up a full-fledged Russian naval base at Port Tartus, said Syria's Charge d'Affaires in Russia Suleiman Abou Diyab.

"Russia must decide on its own whether it wants to set up a base there," he said in an interview with Interfax.

The Syrian diplomat also said that Moscow has not contacted Damascus over this proposal.

During its dispute with Ukraine over the presence of the Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol, Russia was eyeing the prospect of deploying a naval base in Tartus, he said. "But we subsequently learned from media reports that Russia was no longer considering this," he added.

He declined to speculate on how much Syria is interested in this project.

"This issue will be discussed when it is raised. But the theme remains on the agenda. It is for Russia to decide whether it will be taken up again," Abou Diyab said.

He also said he doubted that the mass unrest in Syria will impact the delivery of Russian Bastion mobile coastal missile systems with Yakhont anti-ship missiles to Syria.

"If the contract [to deliver Bastion systems and Yakhont missiles] exists, why should it not be implemented? Contracts must be fulfilled," he said.

The Russian Navy's logistics support post at Port Tartus is the only Russian military base in the far-abroad. An agreement to deploy Russian naval installations was signed by the former Soviet Union and Syria back in 1971. The Tartus base was intended to support the Russian Navy's operations in the Mediterranean, primarily to repair and supply warships of the 5th tactical (Mediterranean) squadron.

Since 1991, when the squadron ceased to exist, Russian warships have visited Tartus only on separate occasions.

The Tartus naval logistics facility, based in Syria, is comprised of three PM-61M floating piers, with only one in service; a repair vessel, rotated once in six months, warehouses, barracks and other auxiliary facilities.

Tartus is not a permanent base and is intended only for temporary mooring, repair and resupplies. It also includes floating maintenance plants, which can repair ships directly in the sea.

Israel has expressed its concern to the Russian government on many occasions over Moscow's plans to deliver Yakhont missiles to Syria. Israel argues that if supplied to Syria these weapons may fall into extremists' hands
                                                            _____________________

Russian Naval activity Tartus   ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartus)

The city hosts a Soviet-era naval supply and maintenance base, under a 1971 agreement with Syria, still staffed by Russian naval personnel. In particular, the Russian Navy's 5th Mediterranean Squadron has been using the base. It has been reported that Russia and Syria are conducting talks about permitting Russia to develop and enlarge the base in order to establish a stronger naval presence in the Mediterranean, and amidst the deteriorating Russia relations with the west in conjunction with the 2008 South Ossetia war‎ and the plans to deploy US missile defense shield in Poland, it has been asserted that President Assad has agreed to Tartus port’s conversion into a permanent Middle East base for Russia’s nuclear-armed warships. Moscow and Damascus additionally announced that it would be renovating the port, although there was no mention in the Syrian press. On September 19, ten Russian warships docked in Tartus. According to Lebanese-Syrian commentator Joseph Farah the flotilla which has been moved to Tartus consists of the Moskva cruiser and four nuclear missile submarines. According to Farah upgrades of the port facilities are already under way. Since 1992 the port has been in disrepair with only one of its three floating piers remaining operational, but the facilities now are being restored.

On September 22, 2008, Russian Navy spokesman Igor Dygalo said the nuclear-powered battlecruiser Peter The Great, accompanied by three other ships, sailed from the Northern Fleet's base of Severomorsk. The ships will cover about 15,000 nautical miles (28,000 km) to conduct joint maneuvers with the Venezuelan navy. Dygalo refused to comment on Monday's report in the daily Izvestia claiming that the ships were to make a stopover in the Syrian port of Tartus on their way to Venezuela. Russian officials said the Soviet-era base there was being renovated to serve as a foothold for a permanent Russian navy presence in the Mediterranean.

On July 20, 2009 RIA Novosti reported that the base would be made fully operational to support anti-piracy operations. It will also support a Russian naval presence in the Mediterranean as a base for "guided-missile cruisers and even aircraft carriers".

                                          Articles shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

 

[The Bread Guy]

Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced that targeted sanctions would be imposed against members of the current Syrian regime.  This action is in response to the on-going and violent crackdown by the military and security forces against Syrian civilians who are peacefully protesting for democracy and the respect of human rights.

“Canada is gravely concerned at the excessive use of force by the Syrian regime against its own people, which has reportedly resulted in the deaths of hundreds of civilians and the detention of thousands more,” said Prime Minister Harper. “The sanctions being announced today are a repudiation of Syria’s blatant violation of its international human rights obligations that threaten the security of the entire Middle East.”

Canada is also concerned about the humanitarian situation in cities and towns that remain under military lockdown, and by reports that hundreds of Syrians are fleeing the country.

Our Government will be implementing the following sanctions against Syria which are aimed at pushing for democratic reform:

    A travel ban to Canada imposed on designated people associated with the current Syrian regime;
    An asset freeze against people associated with the current Syrian regime and entities involved in security and military operations against the Syrian people;
    A ban under the Export and Import Permits Act on the export from Canada to Syria of goods and technology that are subject to export controls; and,
    A suspension of all bilateral cooperation agreements and initiatives with Syria.


The measures announced today directly target members of the current Syrian regime and individuals and entities involved in the crackdown. They are not intended to cause harm to the Syrian people ....

A bit more in news release here.

 

[apeaceofconflict]

Hello-- long-time reader, first time poster here.

I'm just curious given the recent events in Syria and the UN working on a resolution to condemn the violence, whether people on this forum supported an intervention by foreign forces? Why or why not?

Do you think the violence in Syria is likely to spread and destabilize the region, particularly to Lebanon or Israel?
Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Edward Campbell]

You might want to define "foreign."

Who has a vital interest in settling Syria's problems? Who has the resources and political will to intervene? Does anyone want to intervene when it will look like it, the intervenor, is doing Israel's bidding? What does Responsibility (R2P) to protect really mean?

My short answer is: No.

 

[aesop081]

My answer is no. We intervened in Libya and as soon as that happened, every left-wing nutjob demanded we leave and ranted about "evil NATO" and "illegal war" and other rubbish like that.

Let Syria deal with Syria. It will be a lesson to the left that they cant have it both ways.

 

[Infanteer]

What do we gain by having soldiers there?  Is it worth the bones of one Canadian grenadier?

 

[blacktriangle]

What do we gain by having soldiers there?  Is it worth the bones of one Canadian grenadier?

No and it's not worth a single foot or leg either.

 

[57Chevy]

Here are a couple of good reasons.....The Russian Federation and China.

article from Al Arabiya News
Anne Allmeling: Why Syria’s Bashar Al Assad is not afraid
Sunday 12 June
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/06/12/153004.html
                              ___________________________
from IPS
Russia, China Shield Syria from Possible U.N. Sanctions
Thalif Deen
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=56011
UNITED NATIONS, Jun 9, 2011 (IPS) - A resolution inspired by Western nations critical of civilian killings in politically-beleaguered Syria is facing threats from two veto-wielding permanent members of the Security Council: Russia and China.

If and when the resolution is adopted by the 15-member Council, perhaps next week, it will be diluted to avoid the customary call for economic or military sanctions against a country accused of "ruthlessly crushing" civilian protests.

"It is pretty obvious the Russians and the Chinese are protecting their own economic and military interests in Syria," an Asian diplomat told IPS, "just as Western nations traditionally continue to protect Israel from any form of sanctions at all."

A country with vibrant political, economic and military ties to both Russia and China, Syria depends heavily on the two countries for arms currently used against demonstrators in the three-month-old revolt against the government of President Bashar al-Assad.

article continues at link...
                                              __________________________

and Tartus;  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/100607.0.html  (reply #6)

If it comes to "foreign" involvement, then let the Russians and the Chinese veto masters
take care of their own interests in the Syrian pit.

 

[Lowlander]

What do we gain by having soldiers there?  Is it worth the bones of one Canadian grenadier?

What about Canadian Highlanders, fusiliers, guardsmen, riflemen, dragoons, hussars, etc

 

[Sig_Des]

I lean toward yes.

First, as a first world nation that wags it's fingers at a lot of countries that don't have great human rights record, I feel we should back it up. Does the nation itself have the political will and stomach for it? Probably not.

While not common knowledge, Canada does have some vested interest in Syria. As of Dec 2010, Canada was the third largest foreign direct investor in Syria due to a $1.2 billion Suncor/Petro Canada gas project. In 2009, official trade statistics recorded a total of $61.3 million in Canadian exports to Syria. Canadian Archaeologists have been involved in digs in Syria since the 90's. Hell, there are annual Terry Fox runs in Syria.
( http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/syria-syrie/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/index.aspx?lang=eng )

Add to this Canada's contributions to both the major UN Military missions in the Region. Op DANACA's contribution to UNDOF since the 70's, and Op JADE's contribution to UNTSO the 50's. While the situation in Syria doesn't seem to have a huge affect on the missions currently, it does possess the ability to destabilize the area.  And accepting the fact that our contributions to these 2 missions are much much smaller than they used to be, Canadian soldiers did give up their lives under the UNDOF flag.

I'm sure we won't see it, but I personally would be open to a mission in Syria. Besides, I'd love to see how Silver Mike is doing in Damascus.

 

[Infanteer]

So, we should risk an intervention on the scale of Iraq/Afghanistan for a Suncor project and some dreamy reminisces of UN missions from a generation ago?

 

[Sig_Des]

So, we should risk an intervention on the scale of Iraq/Afghanistan for a Suncor project and some dreamy reminisces of UN missions from a generation ago?

I didn't specify anything of the scale of Iraq/Afghanistan. If anything, IMO we've shot ourselves in the foot with Libya by setting a precedent. Why are we there and not Syria? I'd argue the point that Canada has more national interest in the Syrian region than in Libya. While I won't presume the scope of a mission to Syria, there is a UN framework there.

What I'm saying is that in my opinion, due to our history and our interests, and that we are pushing for certain roles on the international stage, a case could be made for our involvement in an intervention in the area.

 

[Infanteer]

I didn't specify anything of the scale of Iraq/Afghanistan.

So then what?  When I hear intervention, I think troops doing something decisive.

Or should we just harass the Assad regime and hope it goes away?

 

[Pieman]

What I am wondering is: Why intervene so readily in Lybia but do nothing about Syria?