Subsidized Education - ROTP

[checkmate_ca]

Well I applied last year when I was in my first year, I think they look at your marks more then anything. If you are getting good marks then your chance should be pretty high. Well good luck and study hard and do well in school. 

 

[SupersonicMax]

That being said, I think there is a maximum amount of schooling your allowed to be completed, and you may be passed that maximum, since you wouldn't even be a captain before your obligatory service would be complete.

???

 

[ballz]

???

I am pretty sure I read SOMEWHERE that if you have "x" amount of your degree complete, you are not elligible for ROTP. I mean think about it, what if someone were to apply with one semester left? They subsidize your last semester, pay you a salary the entire time. In 4 months you get your commission, and then you leave in 8 months as a 2nd LT? Not to take anything away from a 2ndLT's importance, but I don't think they would consider that a useful investment.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Oh gotcha, I just didn't understand what you meant by that.

 

[IntlBr]

Alright, here's my situation:

I'm a second year university student at University of Ontario IT. I've applied for ROTP, filled out my paperwork, passed the aptitude test and have my interview and medical next Friday morning. These are the questions I want to know:

1. Has anyone been in this same situation? (Being in 2nd year and trying to get into ROTP). If so, what's your story?

2. If you haven't been in my same situation, what are your thoughts on my chances of being accepted?

I assume that if I'm accepted to the ROTP, I will still have to serve 5 years (Which is okay, I plan to serve longer anyways). I have already taken care of 2 of the 4 years of my degree, so would I be seen as "half-price"? since they would only have to subsidize the remaining 2 years of my program? Just a thought.

The recruiter has told me that I would stay at my university and going to RMC is only an option if you start at the very beginning, so I already know about all that stuff.

I was in this position last year - mind you I was already in the PRes, not that it meant anything really aside from making me a slightly more attractive candidate.

I applied during my second year, and was picked up in relatively short order - word came back well before I received my actual offer to complete my degree at the University of Guelph that I could accept a position at RMC this year.  The only condition would be that I would start back in first year, and do four years at RMC - with some credits accredited, making for a lighter work load while at RMC, but also slightly frustrating as it would mean the past two years of university were anulled. 

I waited to see if a CivvyU offer would come out when they actually started calling about ROTP positions (somehow I'd been accepted to RMC at least a month before the actual ROTP offers came out) and when my actual offer came (I had already tactfully declined the RMC position if I could finish at CivvyU), I received my choice of CivvyU or RMC - and I chose CivvyU.

As for minimum amount of schooling, you cannot apply after the end of your second year of education at a Civilian University - unless you intend to go to RMC and start back in first year, and do more or less what I had been offered to do, transfer some credits, and go for another four years.  So, if you had waited until next year, you'd more or less be out of luck.

Good luck with the process!

 

[George Wallace]

I am pretty sure I read SOMEWHERE that if you have "x" amount of your degree complete, you are not elligible for ROTP. I mean think about it, what if someone were to apply with one semester left? They subsidize your last semester, pay you a salary the entire time. In 4 months you get your commission, and then you leave in 8 months as a 2nd LT? Not to take anything away from a 2ndLT's importance, but I don't think they would consider that a useful investment.

ballz

You have to realize that ROTP involves more than just CMR/RMC or Civi U studies.  It also includes a minimum of four Phases of Officer Training in the Trade that the candidate has been selected for.  For instance, someone going in as an Armour Officer, would still be required to complete their Degree as well as four Phases of Armour Officer Training at the Armour School at the Combat Training Center in CFB Gagetown.

 

[ballz]

I do understand this?

What is it that you're getting at...?

 

[George Wallace]

I do understand this?

What is it that you're getting at...?

OK.  You are totally outside of your lanes.

What I am getting at, is that it will not be four months of schooling and then 8 months as a 2 LT for anyone.  Each of the four Phases is a minimum of three months long.  That is at least a year of back to back courses to make an Armour Officer, and the School doesn't schedule courses like that, so the time taken will be longer.

All Officers entering the CF, will have different Terms of Service due to the different Entry Plans, the different Trades, etc.  Unless one knows all the details of this person, one CAN NOT say precisely how long they will have to serve after completing their Degree.  Terms of Service are different for officers who enter through ROTP, DEO, CEOTP, one of the Medical Programs, one of the Legal Programs, Chaplaincy, or Pilot, or any of the other programs.

Best advice is to sit down with someone at the CFRC and discuss what Plan best suits you.  Then you will know what Terms of Service you will be employed as, and what obligatory service you will be expected to do.

 

[ballz]

Ah, now I see where you are coming from. And yes, I agree with you, and it's just more of a reason for them to have a minimum amount of school subsidized. Train you for a year so you can work for 8 months, not very economical is it.

But the obligatory service for *most* trades is 2 months per 1 month of tuition. You get into stuff like Law and whatnot and yeah, there's a few more details, but for *most* trades its pretty straight forward. 2 months per 1 month of tuition, and a minimum of 2 years of subsidized education.

That is a regurgitation of what I've been told by recruiters during my whole ROTP fiasco.

 

[dbouls]

Ah, now I see where you are coming from. And yes, I agree with you, and it's just more of a reason for them to have a minimum amount of school subsidized. Train you for a year so you can work for 8 months, not very economical is it.

But the obligatory service for *most* trades is 2 months per 1 month of tuition. You get into stuff like Law and whatnot and yeah, there's a few more details, but for *most* trades its pretty straight forward. 2 months per 1 month of tuition, and a minimum of 2 years of subsidized education.

That is a regurgitation of what I've been told by recruiters during my whole ROTP fiasco.

Yep same here, thanks for the clarification.

 

[chris_log]

Ah, now I see where you are coming from. And yes, I agree with you, and it's just more of a reason for them to have a minimum amount of school subsidized. Train you for a year so you can work for 8 months, not very economical is it.

But the obligatory service for *most* trades is 2 months per 1 month of tuition. You get into stuff like Law and whatnot and yeah, there's a few more details, but for *most* trades its pretty straight forward. 2 months per 1 month of tuition, and a minimum of 2 years of subsidized education.

That is a regurgitation of what I've been told by recruiters during my whole ROTP fiasco.

You are confusing obligatory service (paying back your schooling) and you Terms of Service (the contract you sign when you join). So, regardless of how long you are subsidised for you will still have a contract you have to serve out (various between 9-13 years on average for ROTP types).

I don't understand what you guys are told at the recruiting centre but you will sign a VIE when you join up for ROTP which is a contract you must serve out. The obligatory service is merely what you have to serve out to pay back for school unless you wish to incurr financial obligations.

See here for the new Reg F TOS http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp

 

[SupersonicMax]

Piper, MUST is a big word.  You may release if the CF agrees after you compulsory service...

 

[chris_log]

Piper, MUST is a big word.  You may release if the CF agrees after you compulsory service...

Yes, yes we've been over this. It is possible to release after you've served enough to pay back your schooling. This is a real bone of contention for you isn't it...backing out of contracts. 

 

[SupersonicMax]

I just don't want people seeing themselve stuck for 13 years (and backing off from enrolment) when they aren't really stuck for 13 years.  It IS possible to release, however not guaranteed.  And for the interested, it WON'T put a black mark on your file. 

In 5, 10, 15 years, your life can change... A lot.  The engagements you took 10 years ago may not still be best for and/or the CF anymore.  Plus, how many young ROTP candidates REALLY understand the terms of the contract they sign?  I sure didn't understand all of them.  I do now, but at 16, I don't think I had the maturity and knowledge to understand all that...

 

[chris_log]

I just don't want people seeing themselve stuck for 13 years (and backing off from enrolment) when they aren't really stuck for 13 years.  It IS possible to release, however not guaranteed.  And for the interested, it WON'T put a black mark on your file.

People who aren't ready to commit to the full terms of a contract shouldn't sign it, full stop. Better they don't enroll and waste time and money if they are not willing to be 'stuck' for 9-13 years. If you don't want to be 'stuck', pay for your own degree and join as a DEO with a far shorter contract.

In 5, 10, 15 years, your life can change... A lot.  The engagements you took 10 years ago may not still be best for and/or the CF anymore.  Plus, how many young ROTP candidates REALLY understand the terms of the contract they sign?  I sure didn't understand all of them.  I do now, but at 16, I don't think I had the maturity and knowledge to understand all that...

Again, if someone isn't ready to sign, then don't sign (there's a reason that parents have to sign off on kids under 18 joining). So just because someone may not have fully read the contract they signed we have to say 'ok, poor you, go on your way'? No. If you don't understand, don't sign.

I REALLY take issue when people feel that its ok to back out on their CF commitments after they've gotten the free school and paid back their obligatory service.

Your VIE is however long it is, and you have to serve it out. If you want to leave, you can ask...nicely. BUT, it's not a guarantee. Theres no guarantee at all.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Nope, no guarantee.  However, it is an option.  As I said, many many things can happen in 13 years.  You cannot predict the future and if the CF wasn't ready to loose people before the end of their engagement, they wouldn't allow people to apply for release.  Somehow, someone with a bigger bar than us thinks it's a good idea to allow the request of a release.  Personally, I don't see anyting wrong with someone that request a release after his Compulsory Service as he already "paid back" his education.  The extra X years don't pay for the education.  Is it a good thing to plan for that?  Absolutely not.  Is it bad if someone asks for a release before his contract comes to term?  Absolutely not.  Once you get a little older (a few more years, finish RMC first), you'll see that a lot of things can happen in a short period of time that may affect your initial decision to serve for 13 years.  You cannot, for 13 years, dedicated entirely your life to the military.  You have a personnal life, your priorities change, and yes, shit happens.  Actually you can dedicate your 100% to the military.  But you won't have anything besides the military...

 

[dbouls]

I agree with Piper about contractual obligations, If you don't know what you're getting into - don't give your word.

Right now I'm 19 and I've made the choice regarding to career in the Canadian Forces. I've been trying to understand the subculture of the forces by reading as much as I can on these message boards, but so far I'm getting the impression of slight bitterness from people when the ROTP program comes up. Do a lot of people just join for the free school then get out when they've done their time? I find that cheap.

I think the idea of "free school" shouldn't be the motivator to join the Forces, the motivators should be the obvious reasons like serving your country, rewarding career etc..

Regardless of the ROTP program I would still join the Forces because I want this to be my career, I see the program as a good way to be ready for when you're done University (You do all the training in the summers and then by the end, you're ready to serve).

Should I bring this up in my interview? because I don't want them to think that I'm just doing the ROTP program to get a free ride, I just want to train for my career while in University.

 

[ballz]

You are confusing obligatory service (paying back your schooling) and you Terms of Service (the contract you sign when you join). So, regardless of how long you are subsidised for you will still have a contract you have to serve out (various between 9-13 years on average for ROTP types).

I don't understand what you guys are told at the recruiting centre but you will sign a VIE when you join up for ROTP which is a contract you must serve out. The obligatory service is merely what you have to serve out to pay back for school unless you wish to incurr financial obligations.

See here for the new Reg F TOS http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp

I was not confusing obligatory service with the actual contract. What you just said is your "obligatory service" is exactly what I was talking about it, and exactly what I referred to as "obligatory service."

On the topic of the contracts, I plan on doing a full career in the CF. That being said, if there was no way of getting out of a 13 year contract, I would not have signed up. I was 18 years old when I signed up, 13 years is almost as long as my frickin lifetime. How can ANYBODY be expected to KNOW where they will sit in 13 years? I have full intentions of fullfilling my "contract," but if I were not able to get out of that contract, I sure as hell wouldn't sign it.

If the terms of the contract were fixed, then I could possibly seeing it. If pay were garunteed under the contract, benefits, living conditions, etc, then yes. But as long as pay and all that stuff is allowed to change, then I shoudl be able to 'change my mind" so to speak. It's not like a normal contract where its "13 years @ this much for year 1,2,3, and this much for year 4,5,6, etc." And so its not even a real contract in my opinion.

What happens if in 8 years the green party has power of Canada and a 5th year captain is making 10k a year and forced to live in the barracks even though he's got a wife and kids, and his wife is out of work cause she worked in an oil-related field. He should have to fullfill his next 5 years at 10k a year, even though when he signed up he should have been making 70-80k a year at this point?

F**k that noise!

 

[SupersonicMax]

I think the idea of "free school" shouldn't be the motivator to join the Forces, the motivators should be the obvious reasons like serving your country, rewarding career etc..

It's not right to join for these reasons, however, as I said, the life around you will change, and you may find a few years after your compulsory service is over that other factors may come to your life (that you will develop after you're done University, like a significant other, kids, parents getting older, financial situations, opportunities).

Again, if the CF wouldn't want you to be able to leave, they wouldn't make the release program available to us... 

BTW Piper, Compulsory Service isn't merely paying back for your education, it IS paying back for you education (to the eyes of the CFs).

 

[chris_log]

Nope, no guarantee.  However, it is an option.  As I said, many many things can happen in 13 years.  You cannot predict the future and if the CF wasn't ready to loose people before the end of their engagement, they wouldn't allow people to apply for release.  Somehow, someone with a bigger bar than us thinks it's a good idea to allow the request of a release.  Personally, I don't see anyting wrong with someone that request a release after his Compulsory Service as he already "paid back" his education.  The extra X years don't pay for the education.  Is it a good thing to plan for that?  Absolutely not.  Is it bad if someone asks for a release before his contract comes to term?  Absolutely not.  Once you get a little older (a few more years, finish RMC first), you'll see that a lot of things can happen in a short period of time that may affect your initial decision to serve for 13 years.  You cannot, for 13 years, dedicated entirely your life to the military.  You have a personnal life, your priorities change, and yes, crap happens.  Actually you can dedicate your 100% to the military.  But you won't have anything besides the military...

First off, I don't go to RMC (I'm pretty serious about making that distinction).

Secondly, I know full well how 'things change'. You're not much older (and not much more experienced) then I am, so don't try to be patronising. If you sign a contract you should be held to it. EVERYONE knows that military life is hard, especially if you have a family and if you are not prepared for that then either don't join or don't knock someone up and end up with a family until your contract is up (an example of how things change). I'm not sure how things work in your job, but if you talk to junior officers in my field of work you DO dedicate yourself 100% to the military as a junior officer. There are lots of secondary jobs, odd jobs, duty etc to be done and if you aren't ready for that, don't sign. One of the best lines I was told (when discussing apartments) was 'live in the shacks, you'll never be home anyways except for a change of clothes'.

I was not confusing obligatory service with the actual contract. What you just said is your "obligatory service" is exactly what I was talking about it, and exactly what I referred to as "obligatory service."

On the topic of the contracts, I plan on doing a full career in the CF. That being said, if there was no way of getting out of a 13 year contract, I would not have signed up. I was 18 years old when I signed up, 13 years is almost as long as my frickin lifetime. How can ANYBODY be expected to KNOW where they will sit in 13 years? I have full intentions of fullfilling my "contract," but if I were not able to get out of that contract, I sure as hell wouldn't sign it.

If the terms of the contract were fixed, then I could possibly seeing it. If pay were garunteed under the contract, benefits, living conditions, etc, then yes. But as long as pay and all that stuff is allowed to change, then I shoudl be able to 'change my mind" so to speak. It's not like a normal contract where its "13 years @ this much for year 1,2,3, and this much for year 4,5,6, etc." And so its not even a real contract in my opinion.

What happens if in 8 years the green party has power of Canada and a 5th year captain is making 10k a year and forced to live in the barracks even though he's got a wife and kids, and his wife is out of work cause she worked in an oil-related field. He should have to fullfill his next 5 years at 10k a year, even though when he signed up he should have been making 70-80k a year at this point?

F**k that noise!

So you want all the benefits of a CF career (education, training, work experience) but want that 'out' just in case? In other words, have your cake and eat it too. Your example is silly, they won't pay Capt's a salary that puts them below the poverty line...they'll retire you early. If you are going to use an example, at least pick one that is plausible.

Finally, your line "who knows where people will sit in 13 years" really bugs me. If you don't want to have your life controlled by the CF for 13 years then DON'T JOIN ROTP. Pay for YOUR OWN degree and join as a DEO (if you are serious about serving) so that you aren't 'unfairly' tied down.

Ugh.