Sub inquiry
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I don't understand how running on the surface with two hatches open can be common practice in the Canadian Sub forces?
It seems counter intuitive. ???
If he gets any sort of reprimand, then the Liberal govt should also be held to task for stalling on the repairs in Scottland for far too long thus contributing to work needed to bring the sub up to spec. I believe that due to delays in repairs the sub was in worse shape and not neccessarily ready for a solo voyage across the pond.
Blue Max
It seems counter intuitive. ???
If he gets any sort of reprimand, then the Liberal govt should also be held to task for stalling on the repairs in Scottland for far too long thus contributing to work needed to bring the sub up to spec. I believe that due to delays in repairs the sub was in worse shape and not neccessarily ready for a solo voyage across the pond.
Blue Max
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I believe that running on the surface with hatched open to "vent the boat" of stale air and diesel fumes was a fairly standard practice with the Oberons.
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If you check the Navy forum and do a search you will find a couple of submariners have commented on this way back as to why the hatches may have been opened.
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Yes I stand corrected, it had something to do with inadiquate ventilation on the Oberons. Still a risky endevour in rougth seas, to keep the hatches open.
Question begs to be asked; Why do the subs have a bad ventilation system? If this was known of the subs, why not upgrade the ventilation while on refit?
Blue Max
Question begs to be asked; Why do the subs have a bad ventilation system? If this was known of the subs, why not upgrade the ventilation while on refit?
Blue Max
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Well think about it...your in a craft underwater. You have machinery constantly going, different smells from BO to cooking food to diesel engines. Snorkling only takes in so much fresh air. Imagine being cooper up in an armoured vehicle for days at a time with no ventiliation, its not pleasant.
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Blue Max said:
I think he means that it is for a diesel boat...Which, as I understand it, are not the most technologically advanced things out there, compared to say a nuc boat, which is capable of running underwater for months at a time...
Slim
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Well Blue Max let me put it to you this way...when the O-Boats were going if you were downwind of a submariner that just retured from a partrol you knew it. All you could smell was the diesel fumes and if you went onboard of a sub and you are not used to it, you were coughing. Thinking back when a pair of German U-Boats and their tender came in a few years ago, same smell. so take that for what its worth, IMO they do.
Sorry for the test post. I am having real problems with my system eating posts but I am going to try one more time. For the people warning me about OPSEC, nothing in this post is not freely available on the web or in press releases from the forces.
1. for the people asking for clarification about the hatches, the URL in the post above will take you to the DND website and a cut away drawing of the Victoria class sub.If you expand the drawing and examine the fin area the conning tower is labeled. The upper and lower conning tower hatches are the ones being discussed. The conning tower itself is a watertight chamber that can be used as a lockout chamber when running shut down on the surface or both hatches are left open when running opened up on the surface. If you look at the drawing you can see how the conning tower and fin are designed as a series of baffles to prevent sea water from getting sucked down into the control room. It does not always work.
2. Running opened up on the surface is not done on a whim of the captain. There are good operational and technical reasons. Having a big hole open in the pressure hull of a submarine at sea is not something submariners are comfortable with. Sometimes it is necessary and there are laid out procedures and regulations to cover it.
3. For Blue Max, the Oberons did not have bad ventilation systems. The improved Super O's like Onondaga and Okanagan had an upgraded system from the original design Oberons like Ojibwa, but all three had good systems. You have to remember, once a sub dives it has a finite air supply onboard. The nuclear boats have plants to cleanse the air and make oxygen, but those plants are massive and power hungry. Not an option for a diesel electric boat. The conventional boats can extend the air supply with oxygen generators and CO2 absorption units, but realistically the battery will run out of juice before the air supply gets lethal. Charging the battery means running the diesel generators. That means either snorting or surfacing. The ventilation systems could have the air through out the entire boat changed with just a few minutes running of the diesels. And yes, the first blast of fresh air after a few days dived stunk and could make you nauseous.
4. Now, having said all that , let me explain why the submariners are annoyed. All this fuss about the hatches and the shower down the tower is irrelevent. Let me emphasize that as loudly and rudely as I can. IT IS IRRELEVENT. It does not matter how much water came down that tower, the main power cables should not have shorted out. Does the transformers and wiring to your house short out and burn every time it rains? Now I have to admit, it is not quite the same, the transformers and wiring to your house are built to civilian CSA standards. The cables on the sub are supposed to be insulated to the much tougher MILSPEC standards.This is not a bloody cruise ship running away from storms in the Caribbean. This is supposed to be a submarine that can stand up to the North Atlantic and combat damage. The question we want answered is how a minor ingress of water could take out the main power system and kill a man.
5. As for the gentleman who was scandalized at the idea that politics might be involved in the inquiry and Ottawa might scapegoat an officer to prevent further investigation, grow up, willya.
1. for the people asking for clarification about the hatches, the URL in the post above will take you to the DND website and a cut away drawing of the Victoria class sub.If you expand the drawing and examine the fin area the conning tower is labeled. The upper and lower conning tower hatches are the ones being discussed. The conning tower itself is a watertight chamber that can be used as a lockout chamber when running shut down on the surface or both hatches are left open when running opened up on the surface. If you look at the drawing you can see how the conning tower and fin are designed as a series of baffles to prevent sea water from getting sucked down into the control room. It does not always work.
2. Running opened up on the surface is not done on a whim of the captain. There are good operational and technical reasons. Having a big hole open in the pressure hull of a submarine at sea is not something submariners are comfortable with. Sometimes it is necessary and there are laid out procedures and regulations to cover it.
3. For Blue Max, the Oberons did not have bad ventilation systems. The improved Super O's like Onondaga and Okanagan had an upgraded system from the original design Oberons like Ojibwa, but all three had good systems. You have to remember, once a sub dives it has a finite air supply onboard. The nuclear boats have plants to cleanse the air and make oxygen, but those plants are massive and power hungry. Not an option for a diesel electric boat. The conventional boats can extend the air supply with oxygen generators and CO2 absorption units, but realistically the battery will run out of juice before the air supply gets lethal. Charging the battery means running the diesel generators. That means either snorting or surfacing. The ventilation systems could have the air through out the entire boat changed with just a few minutes running of the diesels. And yes, the first blast of fresh air after a few days dived stunk and could make you nauseous.
4. Now, having said all that , let me explain why the submariners are annoyed. All this fuss about the hatches and the shower down the tower is irrelevent. Let me emphasize that as loudly and rudely as I can. IT IS IRRELEVENT. It does not matter how much water came down that tower, the main power cables should not have shorted out. Does the transformers and wiring to your house short out and burn every time it rains? Now I have to admit, it is not quite the same, the transformers and wiring to your house are built to civilian CSA standards. The cables on the sub are supposed to be insulated to the much tougher MILSPEC standards.This is not a bloody cruise ship running away from storms in the Caribbean. This is supposed to be a submarine that can stand up to the North Atlantic and combat damage. The question we want answered is how a minor ingress of water could take out the main power system and kill a man.
5. As for the gentleman who was scandalized at the idea that politics might be involved in the inquiry and Ottawa might scapegoat an officer to prevent further investigation, grow up, willya.
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Thanks for setting the record straight buckahed.
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Ex-Dragoon said:
Nearly pissed myself laughing. You're not talking coyly about a certain submariner from Prince Albert, are you?
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http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2005/04/11/991334-sun.html
Sub parts are scarce
By CP
THE FACT that Canada's four Victoria-class submarines are the only ones of their kind in the world could create a costly, logistical ordeal for the Canadian navy, a military analyst says. The warships are "strategic orphans," which means costs for maintenance and spare parts will be higher than average, said David Rudd, president of the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies.
"How much more expensive this will be remains to be seen," he said in a recent interview.
The navy has issued a call for proposals from private companies interested in service support for the British-built boats once they are fully operational.
Specifically, the military is turning to private industry to provide engineering and logistical support for the submarines, in much the same way it did for its coastal defence vessels, defence department spokesman Tara Murphy said recently.
In 1998, Ottawa acquired the used, diesel-electric subs in an $897-million lease-to-purchase deal after they were mothballed by the Royal Navy in the mid-1990s.
Given the fact they were sidelined soon after entering service, the technical expertise and maintenance history is extremely limited, said Rudd. That means Canadian engineers will have to find solutions to technical problems on their own.
"When tests are carried out (in other countries) you can take advantage of that data without actually having to do your own tests," Rudd said.
Defence department spokesman Elizabeth Hodges said the military has not encountered any problems acquiring spare parts and is confident it will be able to keep doing so.
Sub parts are scarce
By CP
THE FACT that Canada's four Victoria-class submarines are the only ones of their kind in the world could create a costly, logistical ordeal for the Canadian navy, a military analyst says. The warships are "strategic orphans," which means costs for maintenance and spare parts will be higher than average, said David Rudd, president of the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies.
"How much more expensive this will be remains to be seen," he said in a recent interview.
The navy has issued a call for proposals from private companies interested in service support for the British-built boats once they are fully operational.
Specifically, the military is turning to private industry to provide engineering and logistical support for the submarines, in much the same way it did for its coastal defence vessels, defence department spokesman Tara Murphy said recently.
In 1998, Ottawa acquired the used, diesel-electric subs in an $897-million lease-to-purchase deal after they were mothballed by the Royal Navy in the mid-1990s.
Given the fact they were sidelined soon after entering service, the technical expertise and maintenance history is extremely limited, said Rudd. That means Canadian engineers will have to find solutions to technical problems on their own.
"When tests are carried out (in other countries) you can take advantage of that data without actually having to do your own tests," Rudd said.
Defence department spokesman Elizabeth Hodges said the military has not encountered any problems acquiring spare parts and is confident it will be able to keep doing so.
We worked with a Halifax and Ottawa based firm on the RCN (now Canadian Navy) plan to acquire
nuclear submarines - there was a British and a French choice. Our role was to determine a support port
for the submarines (four were in the bid process) beyond the port of Halifax NS. Recommended
altrernative ports were: Port Hawkesbury NS, Sheet Harbour NS, Stephenville NF and one other.
The plan to obtain the SSN boats was very advanced, but the Mulroney government felt the high
initial costs could not justify the purchase - despite all the media nonsense, the Mulroney government
did a lot of harm to the Canadian Forces, driven by bureaucrats from the previous regime. It will be
no surprise if the unfortunate Captain of HMCS Chicoutimi faces a General Court Martial, but that
will not resolve the problem of the boats sitting idle for such a long period of time, and the ensuing
operational problems. MacLeod
nuclear submarines - there was a British and a French choice. Our role was to determine a support port
for the submarines (four were in the bid process) beyond the port of Halifax NS. Recommended
altrernative ports were: Port Hawkesbury NS, Sheet Harbour NS, Stephenville NF and one other.
The plan to obtain the SSN boats was very advanced, but the Mulroney government felt the high
initial costs could not justify the purchase - despite all the media nonsense, the Mulroney government
did a lot of harm to the Canadian Forces, driven by bureaucrats from the previous regime. It will be
no surprise if the unfortunate Captain of HMCS Chicoutimi faces a General Court Martial, but that
will not resolve the problem of the boats sitting idle for such a long period of time, and the ensuing
operational problems. MacLeod
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