Student takes grenade to class

[Sheerin]

Up until this last sentence, I was in agreement with you.

Why shouldn't the teacher allow "Johnny" to bring in a dud/inert grenade??  I'll grant that the teacher needs to be REALLY sure that the grenade is, indeed, inert - but after having that assurance, why not?

The school board would most likely fire the teacher if they allowed a student to bring a weapon (even an inert one) to school.  Most school boards now have strict zero tolerance policies about weapons, the same thing would most likely apply if the kid wanted to bring his plastic glock to school. 

 

[Red 6]

Several years ago my son went to a summer rafting camp sponsored by our city recreation department. I let him use my rucksack to carry his stuff in. The week before I went to some tactical rifle training and accidentally left a dummy round in one of the pockets on my ruck. This was one of the brass cased dummies with the orange plastic projectile. Somehow it fell out in the bus and a kid found it rolling on the floor. The staff overreacted like nobody's business. The staff asked the kids if any of them knew anything about the round. My son raised his hand because he knew what the dummy rounds were and they grilled him. He told them who I was and that it was probably mine. Ultimately the staff called the local police, which I happened to work for. Fortunately, the responding officer gave the incident the amount of attention it deserved-zero. The course director then called all of the parents of the children and told them what happened.

My wife was home when the call came and she called me on my cell. I picked my son up on the way home from work and talked to the course director who was really condescending. I tried to be nice but it was really hard. Finally, I said, "Listen, this is ridiculous. The only way anybody could get hurt by this thing is if somebody stuck it in their eye." The director lectured me about parental safety, blah blah blah. When he was finished, I told him I either wanted a full refund or that we forget this entire incident. I never heard another word about it and my son finished the camp.

 

[medaid]

wow... talk about over reacting!  :

 

[Roy Harding]

Just the touch/don't touch stuff.  By the time I was in school, we were amazed by the notion of bomb shelters and the like.  It was very quaint and dated. 

...

Good recovery on the age thing - but seriously, you do remember being shown "what not to touch" in school?  In both Canada and Germany?  Or just Gagetown?

 

[Roy Harding]

The school board would most likely fire the teacher if they allowed a student to bring a weapon (even an inert one) to school.  Most school boards now have strict zero tolerance policies about weapons, the same thing would most likely apply if the kid wanted to bring his plastic glock to school. 

I understand (to a limited extent, I'll grant) what the teachers are up against.  I'd ask, though - is an inert grenade a "weapon", or just a representation of one?  Is a "plastic glock" a "weapon", or just a representation of one?

Although I'd agree that the sudden presentation of either fake SHOULD be taken seriously (therefore my agreement with what the teacher did in the case under discussion in this thread), I'd argue that the pre-arranged/pre-authorized presentation of any fake does no harm, and in fact may do some good, education wise.


Roy

 

[scoutfinch]

Good recovery on the age thing - but seriously, you do remember being shown "what not to touch" in school?  In both Canada and Germany?  Or just Gagetown?

I clearly remember Gagetown.  I don't think we were in Lahr.  I can only assume that is because we weren't in the same proximity to the training area in Germany.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Actually, Yrys - I DO recall bringing such things into my kid's classrooms in Petawawa.  I assisted an Ammo Tech in showing kids what could be dangerous, and what not to play with.  The Ammo Tech had a whole board of inert "stuff" which could be readily found on the ranges around Petawawa.  The whole idea was to teach the kids (where have you heard this before?)  -  If you didn't drop it, DON'T pick it up.

But there is a big difference between a couple of trained soldiers (who supposedly double checked that all the ordnance was inert) bringing a display into a classroom to instruct the students and a teacher considering allowing "Johnny Boy" to bring an (inert) grenade for show and tell.  How can that teacher be "really sure"?  On more than one occasion a grenade that someone was "really sure" was inert suddenly decided to prove that it wasn't.

Back in the days of 'duck and cover', a WW2 veteran who worked for my Grandfather had a few things that he brought back from Europe as souvenirs.  I remember even handling them when I was 6 or 7 years old.  He was sure that they were 'dummies'.  Well one day he had the dummy in the trunk of his car when it went off.  Luckily no one was injured but it sure messed up his car.

 

[Roy Harding]

Several years ago my son went to a summer rafting camp sponsored by our city recreation department. I let him use my rucksack to carry his stuff in. The week before I went to some tactical rifle training and accidentally left a dummy round in one of the pockets on my ruck. This was one of the brass cased dummies with the orange plastic projectile. Somehow it fell out in the bus and a kid found it rolling on the floor. The staff overreacted like nobody's business. The staff asked the kids if any of them knew anything about the round. My son raised his hand because he knew what the dummy rounds were and they grilled him. He told them who I was and that it was probably mine. Ultimately the staff called the local police, which I happened to work for. Fortunately, the responding officer gave the incident the amount of attention it deserved-zero. The course director then called all of the parents of the children and told them what happened.

My wife was home when the call came and she called me on my cell. I picked my son up on the way home from work and talked to the course director who was really condescending. I tried to be nice but it was really hard. Finally, I said, "Listen, this is ridiculous. The only way anybody could get hurt by this thing is if somebody stuck it in their eye." The director lectured me about parental safety, blah blah blah. When he was finished, I told him I either wanted a full refund or that we forget this entire incident. I never heard another word about it and my son finished the camp.

I understand your angst, Red - BUT I repeat what I said earlier - how do you expect a civilian to know the difference between a live round/weapon and a dummy/inert one?

My sons have also been caught with "inappropriate" items - in similar circumstances to those you outline above (IE -they weren't knowingly running around with inert ammo)  I also tried to be really nice, and I found those speaking to me "really condescending", but I DID understand that they were just doing their job (even if they didn't know what they were talking about), and I congratulated them on their (uninformed) vigilance.  (And this all took place LONG before 9/11).

When it comes to my kids (and other kids) - I WANT the uninformed to assume the worst (even when they're wrong) - and I want them CONGRATULATED for their vigilance - NOT castigated for their ignorance.


Roy

 

[Sheerin]

I understand (to a limited extent, I'll grant) what the teachers are up against.  I'd ask, though - is an inert grenade a "weapon", or just a representation of one?  Is a "plastic glock" a "weapon", or just a representation of one?

Although I'd agree that the sudden presentation of either fake SHOULD be taken seriously (therefore my agreement with what the teacher did in the case under discussion in this thread), I'd argue that the pre-arranged/pre-authorized presentation of any fake does no harm, and in fact may do some good, education wise.


Roy

I don't disagree with you about the educational aspect  Kids should be taught about weapons and what to do if they find them.  I just don't think that Johny Boy would be the best instructor for that.  Which is another reason why the teacher would be right in saying no to the parents of Johny if they asked if he could bring the inert weapon to school. 

As for the difference between real weapon and representation of them.  Most school boards don't make a distinction.  If it just represents a weapon its still considered contraband and the student will be told not to bring it to class.  When I was school 15 years ago we were never allowed to bring toy guns in for play or for show and tell and this was even before the Scarborough Board (now TDSB) implemented their Zero Tolerance Policy. 

 

[Roy Harding]

But there is a big difference between a couple of trained soldiers (who supposedly double checked that all the ordnance was inert) bringing a display into a classroom to instruct the students and a teacher considering allowing "Johnny Boy" to bring an (inert) grenage for show and tell.  How can that teacher be "really sure"?  On more than one occasion a grenade that someone was "really sure" was inert suddenly decided to prove that it wasn't.

Back in the days of 'duck and cover', a WW2 veteran who worked for my Grandfather had a few things that he brought back from Europe as souvenirs.  I remember even handling them when I was 6 or 7 years old.  He was sure that they were 'dummies'.  Well one day he had the dummy in the trunk of his car when it went off.  Luckily no one was injured but it sure messed up his car.

Good points, Blackadder. 

Perhaps a better solution might be a closer liaison between the schools and local police/military forces?  So that when Johnny DOES want to bring in his souvenir grenade, the teacher can be SOLIDLY assured that it is inert?


Roy

 

[Roy Harding]

I don't disagree with you about the educational aspect  Kids should be taught about weapons and what to do if they find them.  I just don't think that Johny Boy would be the best instructor for that.  Which is another reason why the teacher would be right in saying no to the parents of Johny if they asked if he could bring the inert weapon to school. 

As for the difference between real weapon and representation of them.  Most school boards don't make a distinction.  If it just represents a weapon its still considered contraband and the student will be told not to bring it to class.  When I was school 15 years ago we were never allowed to bring toy guns in for play or for show and tell and this was even before the Scarborough Board (now TDSB) implemented their Zero Tolerance Policy. 

Again, good points Sheerin.  (You were posting your reply at the same time I was posting MY reply to Blackadder) - so I'll just repeat what I said to Blackadder - perhaps more liaison between police/military and the schools?

Roy

 

[big_johnson1]

I'm not a parent, but I don't think it's appropriate for kids to be running around with replica weapons in school. Maybe a little hypocritical, but times have changed. When I was a kid we used to make our own bow and arrows, and we'd run around shooting eachother with them. Nowdays, you have Columbine, Taber, and Virgina Tech to list a few. Kid shows up with a replica whatever (grenade, pistol, etc), someone overreacts or misinterprets the situation, and someone gets hurt or worse. Seems like every so often a kid get shot over a replica gun by a cop who can't tell the difference. Why tempt fate?

And to argue along the same lines about calling ahead to let the teacher know, that's just one person out of many that may come into contact with the replica as the kid goes into school. Does the teacher mention this to the rest of the school faculty? What about the bus driver? Or kids in other classes? Some citizen who doesn't have their head up their behind on public transportation and notices this? Sheerin is right, the only people who should be "educating" others about the hazards of live or dummy rounds, or grenades and such, are trained professionals.

 

[Roy Harding]

I'm not a parent, but I don't think it's appropriate for kids to be running around with replica weapons in school. Maybe a little hypocritical, but times have changed. When I was a kid we used to make our own bow and arrows, and we'd run around shooting eachother with them. Nowdays, you have Columbine, Taber, and Virgina Tech to list a few. Kid shows up with a replica whatever (grenade, pistol, etc), someone overreacts or misinterprets the situation, and someone gets hurt or worse. Seems like every so often a kid get shot over a replica gun by a cop who can't tell the difference. Why tempt fate?

And to argue along the same lines about calling ahead to let the teacher know, that's just one person out of many that may come into contact with the replica as the kid goes into school. Does the teacher mention this to the rest of the school faculty? What about the bus driver? Or kids in other classes? Some citizen who doesn't have their head up their behind on public transportation and notices this? Sheerin is right, the only people who should be "educating" others about the hazards of live or dummy rounds, or grenades and such, are trained professionals.

I agree with you - it's not appropriate for kids to be "running around with replica weapons in school" - it never was.

I also agree with your point regarding letting the teacher know ahead of time - I was wrong and have admitted as much in previous posts (which you apparently didn't read prior to posting this).  If I wasn't clear enough in previous postings, let me correct that oversight here - I was WRONG regarding letting "Johnny's parents" liaise with the teacher ahead of time.

I stand by, however, the need for a more involved liaison between the schools and police/armed forces.


Roy

PS.  I intend to get back to you regarding whether "things have changed" - I contend they haven't changed all that much.  More to follow.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In 1970, or therabouts, I took a MkIII Lee Enfield to school for Grade 3 show and tell, complete with sword bayonet attached. Walked about 2 klicks down the road with the thing from home, carried it around to all my classes, recess and lunch that day. The Prinicipal was a WW2 vet who showed us how to do drill with it. Walked all the way home with it. Nobody said anything. Maybe they were afraid I'd run 'em through with the bayonet.

The times they are a changin'!

 

[midget-boyd91]

The times they are a changin'!

You've got no idea. I now have to take part in 'lockdown drills' at school now. Everybody crouching in the corner with the blinds down door locked lights out etc....  *sigh*

 

[big_johnson1]

I also agree with your point regarding letting the teacher know ahead of time - I was wrong and have admitted as much in previous posts (which you apparently didn't read prior to posting this).  If I wasn't clear enough in previous postings, let me correct that oversight here - I was WRONG regarding letting "Johnny's parents" liaise with the teacher ahead of time.

I did read the previous posts, and in no way was my response aimed at you Roy. I was just stating my opinion in general.

 

[Roy Harding]

You've got no idea. I now have to take part in 'lockdown drills' at school now. Everybody crouching in the corner with the blinds down door locked lights out etc....  *sigh*

You illustrate my point to Feral - the times HAVE NOT CHANGED that much.

Your description of "lockdown drills" are NOT that different from my own experience of "Nuclear Warfare Drills" that we did in the '60s.  We (little six year olds) crouched under the desk, with the blinds down - and waited for the catastrophic "shock wave" to pass.  To be honest, I don't recall that they were called "Nuclear Warfare Drills" - probably "Civil Defense", or something similar - but I remember doing them.


Roy

 

[Roy Harding]

I did read the previous posts, and in no way was my response aimed at you Roy. I was just stating my opinion in general.

It's OK, my friend, even if you WERE aiming at me.  I will get back to you with stats supporting my point (could be a while - I'm kinda' sliding in and out here, around my domestic duties).

We're engaged in an enlightened debate here - your disagreement with me is not taken as a personal slight.  If I only held discourse with those who agreed with me, I'd never learn anything.


Roy

 

[midget-boyd91]

Your description of "lockdown drills" are NOT that different from my own experience of "Nuclear Warfare Drills" that we did in the '60s.  We (little six year olds) crouched under the desk, with the blinds down - and waited for the catastrophic "shock wave" to pass.  To be honest, I don't recall that they were called "Nuclear Warfare Drills" - probably "Civil Defense", or something similar - but I remember doing them.

Same drill... Different threat. The threat of nuclear war is far from the threat of an individual person with a gun determined on going down in a blaze.
I see where you're coming from. There is still the 'catastrophic' event that the schools are preparing us for.

 

[geo]

Another prime example of how society has become nothing more than a flock of idiotic sheep. Let's consider the chances of the fact that a live grenade could possibly be in a Canadian household.. very slim at worst case itcould be a WWII or Korea "bring back", th chances that the student would have access to such an item.. once again very slim.
When I was going to school we had ranges in the basements where we would shoot our .22s, and even...gasp.. brought them on the school bus. Now kids cannot even bring a damn peanut butter sandwitch because little Jhonny has a peanut alergy. The liberal social re-engineering process has worked, now the mere mention of the word "gun" is enough to get a student suspended and send the kids scurrying to a dark corner....Pathetic that society has become so weak.
   On another tangent since we are talking about schools here why is it that in almost every school shooting the first comments are that it's a product of vilent video games and such? If that were true the rest of the students would have reacted violently to the shooter as they have been conditioned in said games (where you typically start out with little or no weapons), just throwing that one out there.

Remember when the live grenade went off in a classroom in the Valcartier cadet camp....
That one was supposed to be inert too.