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Ditto, you lumbering oaf. And yes, I WILL fight you. 
St Jean, needs changes?
- Thread starter ArmyRick
- Start date
I don't know about St.Jean, but I just finished my PLQ in Shilo and I have to say, I feel sorry for the future of the Canadian Forces. People on my course who should not have been there, failing mostly everything and generally bad leaders/soldiers passing. Look out, its all downhill from here.
I also viewed the basic course going at the same time, wow, I don't think it could have gotten any easier. MLVW to the mess (400-500m max), no pushups, no wpns PT, horrid.
I also viewed the basic course going at the same time, wow, I don't think it could have gotten any easier. MLVW to the mess (400-500m max), no pushups, no wpns PT, horrid.
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xxx
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There is a self sustaining problem in the Reserve training system; garbage in/ garbage out.
We insist on recruiting as many people as possible in order to sustain the "numbers" at the unit and Bde level, without a lot of consideration as to the available resources to actually train these people to a decent standard. Their initial experience of the military is a mad rush to get from class to class, seeing people pass through the system even though they are of questionable ability, harried instructors barely able to give one minute of attention/help to a student duringt a training period....
Two years later, these same people are now back in Meaford/Petawawa etc. attempting to train a new generation of recruits without proper resources. They also do not know how to act as leaders, and even if they "know" what they are doing is wrong, they have little or no reference points to emulate. Their primary duty is to feed the bodies through the mill, rather than the craftsmanship required to create a well trained soldier. (My observations from St Jean are that things are somewhat better there, the training cadre are long service professional NCOs who have a lot more TI and experience than their Reserve counterparts).
Unless and until the training system is matched to available resources, or resources are made available to the training system to cope with the numbers, most of the problems we have identified will not go away. (Mass training at Regimental Depots is essentially a shell game without providing the resources to the Regiments. Same problems, different locations).
We insist on recruiting as many people as possible in order to sustain the "numbers" at the unit and Bde level, without a lot of consideration as to the available resources to actually train these people to a decent standard. Their initial experience of the military is a mad rush to get from class to class, seeing people pass through the system even though they are of questionable ability, harried instructors barely able to give one minute of attention/help to a student duringt a training period....
Two years later, these same people are now back in Meaford/Petawawa etc. attempting to train a new generation of recruits without proper resources. They also do not know how to act as leaders, and even if they "know" what they are doing is wrong, they have little or no reference points to emulate. Their primary duty is to feed the bodies through the mill, rather than the craftsmanship required to create a well trained soldier. (My observations from St Jean are that things are somewhat better there, the training cadre are long service professional NCOs who have a lot more TI and experience than their Reserve counterparts).
Unless and until the training system is matched to available resources, or resources are made available to the training system to cope with the numbers, most of the problems we have identified will not go away. (Mass training at Regimental Depots is essentially a shell game without providing the resources to the Regiments. Same problems, different locations).
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Having just recently graduated from St. Jean in 2004, I did notice that some of the problems mentioned in the previous posts have been glaringly obvious to most recruits.
Language Barrier: I realize that the CF is developed as a bi-lingual force and what not however, lets face facts. Most of the recruits that are at St. Jean ARE English. The first 4 weeks of basic were the most fustrating for some people, having never heard a french person their entire life and suddenly exposed to (and not to bash Francos, some of my best friends in the CF are french) biased instructors and staff that insist on speaking a strange mix of french/english to them. Not only did it make for long drawn out classes, some people on my course failed simply because of this.
PT: Being in a CSS trade now, even for my trade the PT at Basic was simple not there. We had one hardcore PPCLI MCpl (who got promoted to Sgt woo!) who drove the absolute shit out of us each time he went out with us.Fare. Thats it thats all. I can honestly say that I was not prepared for SQ when I left St. Jean.
Weapons Training: When I was in St. Jean they had a 3 strikes your out rule for any PO. This included Weapons. It was my personal opinion that C7 should be drilled into you until you ate, slept and dream C7. The majority of students do not pass C7 on the first try. Alright, fine but you should be doing remedial like theres no tommorow. Second time, you should be gone. And that WAS happening when I was there. Barely 3 months after I leave the policy has changed to: One shall do the Weapons PO until you pass, unlimited amount of retries. Come on guys...this is your bloody personal weapon. I do know one OS who should not have made it past week 5 let alone week 8. Thank god she's left the military.On a side note, I think that this PO should be taught by a Cbt. Arms instructor. In terms of pure experience and expertise (and not bashing any of the purple trades) it this would just seem to make more sense.
Combining SQ/Basic: Having graduated from SQ at good ol' Meaford, I can honestly say, even though the course staff did have their difficulties with lacks of aids, timngs were off, infighting etc etc, my first good experiences in the military did come from SQ. It was here that the idea of "Soldier First" is drilled into you. I had quite the diverse bunch on my SQ, cooks, infantry, Sig OP, EME and one navy trade and we all graduated. From literally the FIRST step off the bus, there is an instructor in your face, which is what I think should be happening at St. Jean. SQ should be learning NEW things, not rehashing old things (like how to do drill...you'd be amazed...gotta love those left about turns). The staff at St. Jean already have enough on their plates turning hammers into somewhat of a troop, SQ is just gonna kill them. Besides, nothing like a miserable 8 weeks up on "the hill" in Meafod to build charactor ;D
At the Course party in St. Jean I had the privilidge to talk to my section commander who said that, yes, the instructors knew of the problems going on in the school. At the time, there were going to be a general shakeup/house cleaning of the school, bring in some new blood etc etc. I wonder if this has come through yet or not. In the end, the instructors are making do with what they've been given.
Language Barrier: I realize that the CF is developed as a bi-lingual force and what not however, lets face facts. Most of the recruits that are at St. Jean ARE English. The first 4 weeks of basic were the most fustrating for some people, having never heard a french person their entire life and suddenly exposed to (and not to bash Francos, some of my best friends in the CF are french) biased instructors and staff that insist on speaking a strange mix of french/english to them. Not only did it make for long drawn out classes, some people on my course failed simply because of this.
PT: Being in a CSS trade now, even for my trade the PT at Basic was simple not there. We had one hardcore PPCLI MCpl (who got promoted to Sgt woo!) who drove the absolute shit out of us each time he went out with us.Fare. Thats it thats all. I can honestly say that I was not prepared for SQ when I left St. Jean.
Weapons Training: When I was in St. Jean they had a 3 strikes your out rule for any PO. This included Weapons. It was my personal opinion that C7 should be drilled into you until you ate, slept and dream C7. The majority of students do not pass C7 on the first try. Alright, fine but you should be doing remedial like theres no tommorow. Second time, you should be gone. And that WAS happening when I was there. Barely 3 months after I leave the policy has changed to: One shall do the Weapons PO until you pass, unlimited amount of retries. Come on guys...this is your bloody personal weapon. I do know one OS who should not have made it past week 5 let alone week 8. Thank god she's left the military.On a side note, I think that this PO should be taught by a Cbt. Arms instructor. In terms of pure experience and expertise (and not bashing any of the purple trades) it this would just seem to make more sense.
Combining SQ/Basic: Having graduated from SQ at good ol' Meaford, I can honestly say, even though the course staff did have their difficulties with lacks of aids, timngs were off, infighting etc etc, my first good experiences in the military did come from SQ. It was here that the idea of "Soldier First" is drilled into you. I had quite the diverse bunch on my SQ, cooks, infantry, Sig OP, EME and one navy trade and we all graduated. From literally the FIRST step off the bus, there is an instructor in your face, which is what I think should be happening at St. Jean. SQ should be learning NEW things, not rehashing old things (like how to do drill...you'd be amazed...gotta love those left about turns). The staff at St. Jean already have enough on their plates turning hammers into somewhat of a troop, SQ is just gonna kill them. Besides, nothing like a miserable 8 weeks up on "the hill" in Meafod to build charactor ;D
At the Course party in St. Jean I had the privilidge to talk to my section commander who said that, yes, the instructors knew of the problems going on in the school. At the time, there were going to be a general shakeup/house cleaning of the school, bring in some new blood etc etc. I wonder if this has come through yet or not. In the end, the instructors are making do with what they've been given.
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GerryCan said:
I just got back from IAP on July 22 and from what the instructors have told us, it is my understanding that BMQ will be extended from 10 to 13 weeks and IAP will be extended to 10 or 11 weeks while BOTP will stay at 5 weeks starting January 2006.
We were told that BMQ was extended to allow for more time in the field (i.e. more patrols, learning defensive tactics, etc.). Moreover, IAP will be extended to include more leadership training and one more week in Farnham. The leadership tasking from IAP and BOTP will also be changed; they will no longer be tasks where the OCdt's are slaves building structures that will most likely be never seen again in their CF careers. The tasks will involve a lot more map & compass and will consist of the IC leading the syndicate on a patrol, section attack, etc. Once again this is what our platoon staff has told us and is by far not official information.
D
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aesop081 said:
This was the case when I went through Oct to Dec 04. However, at that time ther was talk of BMQ being increased to 12 weeks. Not sure if that happened or not.
Cheers
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ROTP Civi U said:
This is interesting, but if they want the OCdts to be patrolling or running section attacks then there is a lot of work to be done. CAP covers that for OCdts that need it, why bother with it for the hard Air and Navy trades that will never see it again? By the time they're done revamping the system IAP will be 4 months long and BOTC will be 3
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